AndrewCampbell

foreign

[Music] education has that involved okay okay now you may recognize this movie this is from 95 it's Angeline Jolie's first movie I believe was called hackers and it's a it's a good time so if you get a chance to get a copy uh go ahead and do it because it's a it's a really fun look at sort of a snippet in time in the 90s where we we were talking about and looking at um this this this idea this this the spirit of hacking which is why I wanted to bring this up uh if you haven't seen the movie go ahead and grab a copy but it's the basically a plot line is that this

group of of young hackers that want to um they're up they pivot against a villainous hacker who's they who's uh imprisoned their friends and they need to gather the right amount of information to go up against the super cute super computer called the Gibson and and take it down and bring it bring it bring their friends to Justice okay and fun note for those who have watched the movie the the name Gibson is actually a a nod to an author called William Gibson who wrote uh he wrote um where is it in my notes

it's not too um burning Chrome in 84. and that's where we actually saw the very first terminology of cyberspace so it was William Gibson that term coined the the term uh cyberspace was kind of which I think is kind of neat uh going forward and this is we're gonna it's gonna be a little bit of a history of of hacking as we go back so now I'm curious how many people recognize this yeah yeah okay okay good anybody over here Yep 2600. this is such a cool uh magazine okay and if you get a chance I believe they're still publishing it if you get a chance go ahead and grab a copy because man the stories that they

they share in this are awesome and it goes all the way back to I believe it was it started in the 80s and it's a collection of stories that hackers had contributed to this magazine and they did more than just share really cool hacking stories they actually shared uh tips on how to do various things you know if we're going to be hacking into phones public phones or if they're talking about anything and it it seemed as if nothing was off the off the table and they also did a little bit of muck racking and do you do there's a term that people may have heard about does have people heard of the term muckracking yeah okay good I

think we'll have their hands up for 2600 know the term but basically mop racking is uh going about and saying hey there's this thing that's that's out there it's kind of like going against the man a little bit and saying um we're gonna expose what you're what you're doing we're gonna throw some Mudder around and tell people about tell people about it and so this this magazine the 2600 was good for that because it did sort of bring people uh down a level okay um look at this slide and I've I did a Google Search and I said uh hacker with a hoodie on and I got like 50 000 pictures because this is a really

popular picture I mean it looks cool for sure and I do joke with my students that when they graduate they're going to be handed a black hoodie and be sent out into industry and I think some people believe me right no and I actually I actually I think the image is cool but absolutely it kind of frustrates me a little bit when I see uh news articles and they got the person in the hoodie hunched over the computer because this is the image that people are being presented of hackers and I don't think that's the image that we should be presenting uh because I don't second

I recommend yeah oh just like take a go to my LinkedIn and then do a picture of me look at this honest felt like he's doing a lot of good security good security for us no but I don't even know how you can avoid that because it's so popular right or you got the anonymous the guy fox image is pretty popular as well yeah we should be wearing that when I um I do have a YouTube channel that I that I post regularly to red blue labs for those who are interested and I'm glad to time timed it because this is fun um I talked to my wife and I said I need to have an image for the channel and so

as I bought a I bought a white hoodie and I bought a black hoodie so that when I'm doing like sort of like offensive stuff I put the black hoodie on when I'm doing defensive things I put the white the white hoodie on but so if you ever watch the video and you see me wearing a black hoodies because I'm feeling particularly nefarious that day uh there you go um the this is the definition that I actually hold to so when I think about what is what is a hacker it's people that can do this and I'm gonna actually read it to you I don't I don't typically read all slides I don't actually even

use slides in my class so that's why I'm a little out of out of out of sorts but it's any sort of technological utilization or manipulation of technology which goes above and beyond the capabilities inherent to the design of a given application okay and the reason I love this definition is because when we when you take a piece of technology and you you're holding it and you turn it upside down and up all around and you get to such a deep knowledge of this piece of technology you're able to manipulate it in a way that it goes past its inherent capabilities and that's what I think that's what I think hacking is right and if you look even further back

into history of the technology it's the it is the hackers that uh push the boundaries of what techno technology can do that actually gave us the technology that we are benefiting from today because they they knew it uh hands down right um

so why am I bringing up um packing magazines and why am I talking about um hacker movies well the the primary reason for that is that there's a hacker ideology this is what I is what I call it and it's it's kind of this this way of thinking when you're addressing a particular situation or a technology logical challenge or when you just want to generally explore what the the capabilities are in front of you and it is a attitude how do we conduct ourselves when I'm faced with a new challenge what is what is my attitude am I going to give up quickly am I or am I going to persevere and play with that technology

until I I really really know it there's a belief what is actually capable with this technology and that's that's the part where we're in the hacker ideology it's dreaming in my mind okay and a mentality which is uh what it's the mindset when it comes to our hacking education okay so in order to understand how cyber education has changed there has to be an appreciation appreciation for this hacker ideology because if as the presentation is called it's called 90s to now and there that hacker ideology existed back in the 90s and I believe that that hacker ideology exists now it's just what we've got as technology and what is available to us is is vastly different than what we had

uh back then okay hmm

so just to reiterate what is what is this hacker mentality mean to me and perseverance is is a key phrase and I when I'm working on a hack the Box machine and it's brutal um the the mentality that we are we need in order to be successful in that is to persevere and I've been in a number even before I was in security uh as an I.T professional there were many at times where I was sitting there for a 12-hour stint where you have to find the solution and I know a lot of people that are in this room have had that experience or you've sat for a number of hours to in order to get that solution

okay and perseverance is that is a key skill not only for I.T people but it's key for security people as well because the answer isn't always going to be abundantly available or or obvious what what it is okay so how did we how did we scratch this this itch for knowledge and I'm thinking about now in the 90s maybe a little bit of the early 2000s how did I how do we learn how did I figure out how to get to a deep level of knowledge and the truth is we read books okay we read instruction manuals uh we read you know the the acronym rtfm that's a that's a common one as well and up on

the screen here I've selected only six and these are have you heard of the rainbow Series yeah this is a collection from the rainbow series there's a lot bigger and I get the name rainbow series because of the colors of the books right there right there uh these aren't necessarily hacker books but they were used by people that wanted to know and understand the fundamentals of computing and networking okay uh these are these were also referenced in the in the movies hackers there's a scene when they're up on during this fancy looking club and they're they're throwing out books and talking about it it's really funny scene um but yeah we we read we read books and

textbooks and they were thick and I we still do that okay and I I have got a whole library at my house of of networking books to get to refresh myself on some of those fundamentals that you might not use all the time um how else did we spread the knowledge of our uh of hacking the for those who may not know this term freaks or freaking have you have you heard of freaking yeah okay this is a fun one um I'll be I'll be truthful this one is a little bit past my time I didn't get the opportunity to freak it in the wild but uh this was a really fun technique where you could actually trick

a public Payphone to let you be make calls wherever you wherever you want in the world uh and so I wanted to bring this as a phone cracking freaks okay this is also sort of the Genesis of fishing as well as the beginning of fishing the pH part of that just this is just a side note but I can I could then at this point in the 90s as they started in the 80s and 70s but we were able to communicate across the globe whoever we wanted to and so the the knowledge of hacking was spreading and so this is the piece of cyber occasion that I wanted to bring to you about sort of that history piece

okay um so what does if we step a few more years into the into the the future what did this naturally lead to and you might recognize Internet relay chats as a very popular way to talk okay these are still being used okay uh by lots of people and it's a it's it may not look like much but it it really is a and I don't I didn't actually proofread some of these texts so who swears in there I uh I apologize I did I did a Google search for Internet relay chats and uh I found some pretty good ones someone pretty offensive but uh whatever it's good for a good laugh these were a text-based way of

communicating we could do a group chat you could do a private chat and they're very popular as I said they're still being used today and if you think about how we could phone everybody with with the technique of freaking imagine being able to reach a room virtually of thousands of people to spread the spread that hacking knowledge now it wasn't it wasn't just that you could just open up your computer and just bam be inside this in this thing you did need a little bit of a gumption to do it and there there was opportunities for like more senior hackers to give us some give some uh edging and help out with uh the more

novice and get into this into this world the there's internally really fun I had to put this image in there this is actually a side note because uh I read a really good book it's called we are Anonymous and it was uh my author's parmy parmy something uh but that's not that's not important the the anonymous the early days of anonymous and I'm thinking like 10 15-ish years ago and lol's like if you've heard of anonymous I know that and if you've likely heard of Lil SEC this is an older an older group they they did a ton of communication over IRC and uh 4chan was the beginning of the anonymous movement okay that's just another another little throwback

just a little tidbit for you I'm on the wrong way boom uh that was a that was a wave file I just did there uh 90s to now uh this one is we had just an explosion of growth in technology we had uh people had computers like it was I believe in like a mid 90s getting to the later 90s it wasn't abnormal for people to have a a personal computer in their house okay and we could reach out and and touch touch machine so people remember when they got their first computer I'm sure I'm sure you do uh I was remembering back when I got my first computer and my parents had bought it

because I didn't have any money and we called it the computer room right and it was really there's a room that was dedicated to this personal computer and it was the computer room and that was that was a fun that was a fun throwback I just want to get caught up here

uh but with this explosion and this accessibility of computers that we had in our in our homes now we actually this was a ushered in what I believe to be a new era of cyber education thank you and here's a here's a pie and I I coin it just like William Gibson coin cyberspace I call it the Cyber education pie okay so if you ever see that around I you heard it here first okay well but uh it's also really good high definition when I was really lucky on that Google search um but there's I believe that there's four key elements that we see in cyber education okay and they they were birthed in in the 90s and it has

continued on to to date but it has altered just a little bit so let's look at the first the first one first one being access okay this is this is quite literally having access to technology when I think about my my lab environment at my house is vastly different than when I was learning uh computing when I was when I was a kid at my parents house destroying their computer because I did multiple times and I I fixed it most most often I was able to cover my tracks thanks LimeWire for that um but uh thank you I need some water

we had we had we have access and if you go back further there wasn't as much access it was really expensive to get these computers but you think right now it's easy I've got a I got a phone that could be rooted and doing Cali I've got my lab environment's got a few machines I've gotten a box in my house that's got like four or five laptops that I would want to do whatever I could I just picked up eight old routers uh out of the garbage to practice router hacking on for some videos that I want to do down the road right I have access to it I'm connected to a Global Network okay

which is pretty awesome and when we when we Ponder this the the gravity and the expanse of the Internet it's huge and and it connects all of us if we want to be right I can I can reach out and literally touch a server on the other side of the planet and I feel like that's amazing right that's that's a part of one of the things about technology that just blows my mind and it's all just through packets right it's it's amazing um but we're all connected to This Global Network infinite information this is this is important to cyber education right I've already admitted that I did some Google search for this presentation right all of us

when I'm presented with a a challenge a hacking challenge it's just a general Tech Challenge or whatever we can go onto the internet and find the information that we need really really fast okay and it feels like infinite information that brings us to the uh final piece of this of this pie boom

and that is the hacker mentality okay so I use the term hyper ideology I'm talking about hacker mentality um and this is when we think about cyber education and remember this is the pie of cyber education where I want to I want to know this thing as much as I possibly can I want to have a deep knowledge of it that's the hacker mentality okay I've got access to my I got access to my computer I'm connected on the local Global Network and I've got infinite access to information there really should be nothing stopping us because I can go out and get all of the information I need it's amazing the time passes okay uh from

the 90s to now the name um what is it what does it look like today what has changed if back in the 90s we had these four elements okay and now I'm talking about sort of like the early 2000s 2010 we had all those four pieces of the pie okay it's that cyber education in my mind but something has slightly changed and for me that is how we ingest information and I think this is the key piece because I can I can get information really really fast and if we go back to an older slide where I look at the the fact that I mentioned that here's the rainbow series of these books and we had to we phoned each other the

information wasn't just readily available I had to I had to pick up a book and read it now I can go to the internet and get information on hacking like if I'm working on a hack the Box I mean there's a ton of walkthroughs on those things uh and you all you know that right uh or I want to do a a quick look up on an exploit for Samba I can go to YouTube and bloop and immediately I'm presented with a plethora of options

I'd like to look at more modern times so not modern but more recent so as I've already told you I'm a teacher at State and I've been teaching for five years now it's been it's been great I love it and during that time I've seen a lot of changes with cyber education and a lot of a lot of external factors played a role in that so covet had a huge impact on Cyber education I believe um and in general uh here's a here's a picture when I looked at my name tag that I hadn't looked at in a while I'm like oh my goodness that was five years ago and then that was last night when I took

out the one on the right I'm like oh my goodness but uh also having kids makes it has an impact on how you look uh but whatever you know uh I when I started I was I really wanted to treat a I have a really positive impact on the world of cyber have a positive effect on the the world uh the the people that were going to be in my industry years years from now right and and it has happened I think people have learned things I'm not totally sure but I'm I'm hoping that hoping that things were learned uh but during that time it's in this moment that I actually learned something really important and I had a I had an

experience and I'm actually going to tell you a story which I got I got the book up there it was it was a moment in time that I had a a massive switch and I experienced something that uh I realized that for the rest of my time in cyber education and as a as a person who believes that being a hacker is good uh there's an impact and this is this is how the story goes so a couple years ago I had a had a project and it was a VPN project and it was to set up site to site VPN between two virtual machines in a virtualized network okay and the the concept of site to site VPN

for the students at this moment in time was was fairly challenging okay I knew it was challenging but it was kind of at the end of semester so at this point they should have been attending and doing the labs and had a good grasp of what I'm getting at all right um but as I'm as I'm going through it I got the I got the regular questions from the students and it was great and it's fine that's when I'm there from I'm supposed to be teaching and I got I had one student who asked a lot of questions and it was really really good um but I'll be honest there was a moment where I was

I was not entirely sure that they were going to get this assignment there was and as a teacher you have that moment like when I you did your best I did my best and now it's up to you to see what you're going to accomplish here um and so the the submission time came and went and I went to look at the video that they made proving that they had done site to site VPN okay and they did it and I was I was pumped I was like oh my goodness I had my doubts here man uh and I actually called him I called this person

I give him a call because I was kind of in disbelief I'll be honest and I said to them I said I wasn't really honest with this person I said you know what I wasn't sure this is going to work I'm really glad you did it like I'm stoked but I wasn't totally confident you're gonna make it and they're like that's all right I said so what was it I asked him I asked him like what was it that clicked for you to get this complicated setup working and they said well I watched this YouTube video and I'm like what I've spent hours with you troubleshooting with you and giving you coaching on on VPN and and I said all

right well if this video was was the thing that clicked for you please send it to me I would like to see the magic of this YouTube video and they sent it to me and it was the worst YouTube video I'd ever seen in my life it was just like it was no no like verbal stuff there's no explanation it was just like this pounding techno uh electronic music when they're going through PS sense connecting and going through all the steps and I'm like well yeah those are all the steps that you're going through and I that's the moment in time that I realized that cyber education had made a little bit of a switch here is that

somebody who had no knowledge no not no knowledge but had it was struggling was able to watch a YouTube video this this what I deemed at the time not so great and was getting had like 100 200 000 views on this on this thing and was able to complete the project which is amazing that they were able to do that and I was like man this is the moment where I started I decided to start YouTube as well because if I can make a video that's marginally better than that and they get a 200 000 views I mean what if I can even just talk or show my face maybe that will make a difference turns out it's way harder to

do YouTube than I envisioned it ends up it's kind of like a job actually it's a lot of work and so that was that's the shift and that's where I that's where I realized that it was how we ingest information has changed okay and even myself when I want to quickly know something I'll be honest sometimes I do just throw on YouTube and get a quick view there was a I'll tell you a funny I think it's funny and maybe people find it funny too but I was I was I was working on a hack a box and I'm like how did I do that thing that I know how to do I I think I know how to do that I feel

like I've done that thing before and uh I youtubed it and I'm like I got this video and man I was just I was just really vibing with this video it was really good it was it was just like exactly how it spoke my my La my what I like to learn and then I I looked at the video and it ended up being one of my own and I was like oh my goodness I was ready to comment man this is the best video I've ever seen but I completely forgotten that I had made it like a year prior so just make sure you watch if you're doing YouTube make sure you look at what you did previously and

also help pay attention to your your own current library because I actually released like three of the exact same video because I'm like man I learned this new thing I'm gonna make a video on it turns out I learned that thing like a year prior but uh my goodness my goodness okay

so we have an abundance of information right and that those those fun stories that I told are kind of on that on that vein is that I we can go and find whatever we want but remember this this picture here okay now these are the four elements that I believe to be part of cyber education however when we think about how we ingest technology or to ingest information I believe that it actually is modifying this pie just a little bit so that it ends up looking a little bit more like this okay now uh no mathematician but I've I've made one slice I made a couple slices bigger than the others all right and I got infinite information about

that that's bigger so our our information that's available to us is growing right we know that websites are being put up there all the time right uh the global network is expanding we are reaching countries that we haven't been able to reach before okay and we've learned about in even in this conference about how uh nation states and attacks are are happening all the time okay uh access now that pilot doesn't look look as big but it should be a little bit bigger but access is happening as well like I said before I've got a few gunji laptops that I might throw onto the network to do whatever work on or I've got a decent orc computer that can go

out and do whatever scanning I want okay and from I can I could Hazard to Guess that most of you have multiple devices in your house that connect to the internet we are we learned about iot yesterday in a in a session right and I I have students doing a project where they do asset management and that's a really cool name I know and it gets people really jazzed when they read about it in the in the learning space but it really implies I was like when I did the iot presentation watched it yesterday I was like yes you're understanding what's in our network is important because I had a conversation with a student I'm gonna use you as an

example we're like there's this this wi-fi there's this the light band The Light strip you remember that yeah and there's a a light strip that was connected to the network and you didn't know what it was and I was like this is perfect example of why um iot and understanding what is super important and that Global Network is expanding remember we talked about like this 50 million iot devices out there it's crazy um the so this is this is kind of where I feel like cyber education is just a little bit and I don't want to end my my talk on sort of a on a downer note and I'm not going to go for the full the full

hour because there's time for whatever um I'm not going to end on a downer note being like well look at that we don't have a proper hacker mentality anymore we don't we don't have perseverance anymore I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be like that because I feel like we are when I when I look at industry and I look at it through Linkedin and I looked at through friends that are in industry and I look at what's available to us I feel like we're on the cusp of something big and I feel like we're on sort of the the cusp of uh a sort of a hacker Revolution if you want to call it that where a lot of people can

join this this growing positive force of of knowledge and expansion of of technology and I feel pretty lucky and blessed to be in the role that I am that can be a teacher and I can see I can see students who are exploring this this world of this world of hacking and there's things like pack the box which is awesome right we didn't have hack the box back in the 90s we had to do things that were to learn that weren't as as great and I won't admit to anything but and I think I think they're I think sporadically a few of us would would have potentially have similar stories and I don't share those stories uh necessarily with

students because that's more like having a beer behind closed doors with your with your other it uh friends but uh I think the hack the box and things like try happy are awesome because it's it's giving us a way to scratch that itch and and doing it in an ethically and ethically uh good way right and I I would I would have to guess it's it's it's also exposing this world of offensive defensive uh hacking and cyber security this is this is part of the ethos of hacking cyber education and try Hackney is really good too I don't actually I don't use try Hackney I do more of the hack the box type thing but

both are both are totally valid and we got other things too you know like Vol Hub or we've got ctfs that were super fun I was just before this presentation I was working on the CTF and I was like man this is this is great and I I was thinking the whole time like man I really love being in this in this field because and I hope to be in this field for the rest of my career because it's every day is different you know and there's all kinds of new vulnerabilities that are coming out and these are opportunities for continued growth in cyber education so like if I could leave you on a on a a note of

encouragement it would be to think about that hack mentality you know I don't I think I'm preaching to the choir a little bit when I say that um the hacker the word hacker doesn't have to be a dirty word I think it is actually an admirable skill set which is like using a hammer I can use a hammer for good I can go and build up build a house really nice or I can use that exact same Hammer to walk down the street and smash windows and steel uh tape decks right tape decks uh no no no but we can use hacking for good and we can use hacking for the expansion of technology which is awesome

um so these are these are some of my My Links I got LinkedIn and then if you're curious about what I do on YouTube feel free to go ahead and check it out um there's no obligation to subscribe at all it's it's I say that a lot I don't want to get in trouble but uh uh really it's I use it as a teaching tool and it has saved a ton of time in class I get a question I get a question again I get a question again they're exactly the same I make a video and I say you know what here's this and then people can watch as many times as they want and it's been a

huge Time Saver in class which is why I use it I've got it now I've got a question do you have any questions for me yes go for it

yeah awesome did you guys did you guys all hear what what one said can you say it again I think

yeah that's awesome and there's also you remember the Captain Crunch story yes yeah it hurts was the tooth and so they'll come with Captain French yeah so it was literally a whistle that it would as a toy in the Captain Crunch box that went and it would let you do you call whatever you want right yeah that's awesome yes [Laughter] well just because you showed up today the answer is no [Laughter] I appreciate the effort Scott laughs oh yeah go for it

you know so uh and the other one was uh okay and one of my students I was trying to practice it was really funny about everything and then he wanted a job so I made sure that I'll try to find English that I'm sure and it was one of the compactors my Interpol y oh my goodness

oh my goodness that's pretty good that's good

which is which is awesome right and so like like I said the freaking was a little bit before my time but I do it I do appreciate the the effort that hackers went to to get that information right it's awesome and in the movie hackers you do see them do you see them doing it with a tape recorder or whatnot um which is fun yeah uh any other any other questions for me go for it yep that material oh good question it did it didn't modify it a little bit for sure so like I said when I would get like multiple questions that are exactly the same and I was sort of I was I was getting tired of saying

the exact same thing over and over again I was like you know what I think I could make a make a video on this and it got to a point when my my library of videos that it made had grown to a point that I could anticipate questions that were coming and so now so my students will will recognize them like here's some links that could help you and they're ones that I've made and they might be based on a project but have enough enough generalness to it that could relate to anybody else on the internet so it did it did impact how I how I do it I don't watch the YouTubes in class

it's more of like if you want to know more about this or you're on this uh troubleshoot through it take a take a look at this I have tried blogging and the ROI on blogging is is pitiful compared to put to YouTube so does that answer your question yeah in the back

oh you know I've used the word hacking and it might be that I'm not big enough yet for them to to do anything about it uh I did get one that was flagged for like using a song that I wasn't supposed to use but um no I have not and you know there's a there's a lot of videos there's a ton of hockey type videos on YouTube and they do a lot more nefarious things than than what I'm what I'm doing and they nuked it so I might that's something I might have to deal with down the road I hope not we should chat afterwards so I can avoid that go for it

also so if I hear you correctly it's the Drawing the Line Between curiosity and ethics okay so like how far do you go before you cross the line which is an important question that we have to have as as a teacher with with students uh because it and I know it's myself because I I've come very close to the line and and then realized it and then had and backed off like oh I got pretty close there uh but didn't cross the line um there's there's a lot of discussion and and be honest telling stories about what things that I've experienced telling stories of people that did cross the line is also good you know uh

nicknick and this mother big uh hackers that did actually do some time and we are seeing folks do time in jail even currently as as policies and regulations get stricter from the government we're we're seeing that happen so these are I would give I gave examples of of what happens if you go too far and then a discussion of how to get close enough so that you're still getting that knowledge and but not crossing the line and then I also encourage to do CTS because those that's a really good way to to get to that offensive Tech uh offensive skills or or hack the box to try happy so that you're not doing it on a live target without

permission kind of thing does that does that answer a little bit yeah we're good okay go ahead [Music]

yeah and it that's a great question like uh I do I do talk about some of the ethics that I've talked with you guys uh but it also depends on what the objective of the course is so when I'm teaching a course on networking protocols it's really about this is what TCP is these are the headers this is what happens when a flag is turned on I mean and we get to that but we also talked about port scan which does get to that which didn't sort of naturally evolves us into that discussion of of Ethics is it okay to walk up to somebody's house and shake the doorknob and it'd be open and then

walk in I would say no I would say no right but is it okay to go up with somebody's doorknob shake it and it's locked and then walk away too you know that's a good that's an important question to debate as well right what are you doing walking up to the house and shaking the doorknob right that's that's my analogy for Port Scott does that answer you that's you awesome yeah it's a very interesting comment so I just wanted to go get your gig on it so you know there are different ways you get into the industry what else you take education and you get a job right yeah

yes so

it may cross the line without even knowing that's true everybody has that baby yeah is true uh and I think that when we when you look at the cyberspace right now there are people that are falling prey to doing criminal things because you can make some money pretty fast uh and they just keep going on that road because the money's pretty good uh so you have to know your own you have to know your own your own ethics I personally would say this is my personal my personal opinion is that I don't think that doing the criminal route isn't admirable thing and I cringe when I see news articles where it says this person did this criminal

activity and now the company hired them I'm like well you did something wrong and I think it's okay to be to just say it um I think there's more ethically good ways to go about it I don't I also don't think it's the norm to be a criminal and then get hired as well but I might be wrong I'm happy to to discuss it uh yes back here and then I have one here

it's hard oh yes yeah and that's that's you're you're totally right I was like what and that's that's the hack of mentality that I I think is is good is that we I can manipulate something and learn about something and get to a deep knowledge on it uh you then have the ability once you have a deep knowledge you can push the boundaries of what it can do um but then you have to decide for yourself how far are you willing to go for that and there and I I'm sure that people could tell me stories about how people went too far and they did something wrong and then we actually benefited from that from that breach or whatever

you know that that expanse it just it's a little bit of circumstance as well does that answer the question a bit yeah yourself

um before advancing further into cyber security um going from industry myself I've seen guys have been out of cyber security degrees where we're having to completely train them on how to manage a switch how to manage a Windows server or no what a command line and Linux is uh to the point of like scratch our head wondering what has happened oh man I love that question because it's it's one that I've wrestled with so here's a quick story I think I got time do I got time for quick story all right I uh I was I was I have had business I had have had my own business and also I've been brought in to

interview for Professor instructors right and I remember I had I had somebody that came in they had I was like man this is gonna be this person's gonna be a shoe and they had a PhD in computer science uh had a degree in security and uh and then my the question I always do when I when I do interviews I said tell me what a stateful firewall is then I sit on that and then the person said I don't know and I said PhD then we read their interview was done at that point right uh but man I went on a side track there oh the but then if I look at and this isn't a

knock to current students please don't take this as a knock to my current students that are here okay and this is completely normal is that when when we start off the education we we're still we're learning about some of the fundamentals of of networking so like what is transmission control and it's okay that we don't know what that is okay but as as as security and technology is like way over here every single year we have we have folks that are still hearing about TCP for the very first time and that's completely fine okay I want to make very clear that that's fine because that's my job is to teach you what what networking protocols is right and so that's that's

one of the challenges is like how do I get people ready to be able to run in once they hit the ground in industry and I think the key thing is if I were to fly back to that perseverance uh uh slide where and that hacker attitude because I when I see when I see folks that students that are dedicated and they're going to drill down and they're going to learn that technology backwards and forwards they they get hired before they even graduate and hiring managers can smell them in a good way like that person knows what they're doing good smell right a smell of knowledge and skill about the stink um does that answer

okay

we really follow the programs just aren't covering people put them on the network team get them I don't really experience more than ever on The Cisco switches again on the Windows Server team to actually get down from there with the server Administration so that they can actually bring it back to Center security and figure out yeah so for students who are hearing this that's this is very important very important Point that's being made um come to Luke Walsh's presentation he's talking about mentoring at 105. yeah what track is it attractive all right and the question here and then back there regards to your hacker mentality oh don't be smart screens in uh ideal and I've actually

changed the way I talk to the team because I if I say something like gee I wonder if that could be done yeah that that's the cookie like that's the cookie that they did yeah

so I I definitely see that hacker mentality that that was that challenge yeah I think I know they're they're speaking they love that nobody's ever done it nobody thinks it can be done yeah yeah that's that's part of how can I love

you and we do it yeah and it's a rush too isn't it and it's an adrenaline rush when you can we can we can pull off a good hack he's like I felt it and I'm like it's it's kind of addictive I'm careful when I use that yeah you don't want to go too far yeah I know I had a question in the back and I'm also respectful of your time so if you have to you have to take off then by all means there was a question at the back and then another one here uh what do I think oh what a good that's a really good question and a very big question um what is the future gonna be like I

think that we're gonna see a growth of that cyber mentality or that the hacker mentality I think we're gonna see a growing body of people that want to explore technology and because we have infinite access to in technology to information via the Internet we are able to the the threshold to get into the space isn't as scary as it was before so I think we're going to see a lot more people with that mentality and we're going to see a lot of lines being being pushed and I think I think that's kind of future we're going to see does that answered a little bit we're gonna see a growth and we already know that there's a need for

security people because people are aware of of what's going on right I think there's a question behind you AKA and then you're yourself but it definitely is academic activities right so I would like to think about you that you can mention about this student what have you done to prepare students my boss is in the room too so

a technique that I use that has dropped academic misconduct to the floor like I rarely have it anymore and so I've asked exams entirely I don't have quizzes anymore in any of my courses I just have Pro authentic uh uh authentic assessments where if they're supposed to set up VPN now let's say this VPN project to say great you set it up I don't actually care if you copied your neighbor to learn how to do that can you explain to me how VPN works and then if they can explain it then there's a grade because at the end of the day they just need to know how to to do it and if if looking at your neighbor

and getting that information helps you learn or going to YouTube I'm watching a quick video helps you learn that's that's the the desires to get that knowledge and so as I don't want I don't like building assessments that are punitive in nature you know oh you didn't do that you didn't answer that question exactly correct right it's more about can you can you explain and demonstrate what whatever the concept is that's a good question does that answer it a little bit yeah yeah I have I have that's right and it depends on the course as well but mostly when I get when I get hand of the course I look at how many tests are in it I go

get him out of there uh because I've noticed the people don't do well with tests it's more projects that are good awesome okay you got a question

like honestly

oh what you know what that's a good question the access to information I believe is increasing or like the amount that's that's there but it also is there's a plethora of garbage information as well and I think that having having a ton of information also increases the probability of getting script kid please do you know what I mean I say script kitties if somebody says oh that that program's going to work they run it and then it works but it they don't know exactly they don't know what they did okay so it's like a low level I did this thing and that's readily available on the internet as well which is which is bad because you can do

a lot of bad things you can do it you can do bad things to yourself if you just run a random program right okay is that answer for you okay it depends if you're if you're on the good side you get a white hoodie and or maybe a gray hoodie huh [Laughter] another question [Music]

no I did not I don't know I'd have to I'd not pull the pull the room

is that a question Andrew awesome thank you awesome go for it

I guess into the future but with what would you do and go out with it oh well first of all I and I did this when I was in because I went to say tennis somewhat years ago I can't it's it's back then networking going into things like this is really important uh there was a keynote this morning that talked about understanding business language that's really important being able to speak to that that's kind of like I would say kind of like the magic sauce if you want to get it get hired really fast um I I actively engaged in networking with people I would I would I would ask industry people to go and have coffee

with me without the expectation that they would hire me and then that made it that made a huge difference because then then down the road when I was Contracting they remembered me and said Andrew you were that guy that had coffee with me and you had good questions and then I got contracts based on those coffees coffee was is a good thing and I like coffee as my students know as I throw mugs mug after mug in the garbage awesome to answer your question Andrew awesome thanks any other question before right you you get sent off for lunch do you want to chat afterwards by all means come on up and chat awesome thanks everybody

it was a pleasure thank you [Applause]