Hacking With Hardware

thank you it reminds me when I saw the 100 bitcoins for 500 euros story welcome to hiking with hardware I'm so glad to be here at decides again it's a wonderful venue full of wonderful people so you already introduced me my name is Pedro Moreno currently I'm the senior security researcher at check marks but I also do a lot of stuff on my spare time sometimes I write for hecka day I haven't written for for some some months now I don't have the time but I'm here as a hardware hobbyist and I'm going to talk about hacking with hardware so it's not going to be about hacking hardware we are not going to try and figure out how

to hack into your own router to change the DNS settings or whatever I'm going to talk about hardware that was built with the purpose of hacking specific hardware and why do I want to talk about this I think other gadgets are are cool if they are security related even better I think in we all share like this common imaginary of somewhere some spies that have all these cool gadgets that can open doors or make an ATM speed money or whatever that alley would kind of implanted on us and we want to build this device is somehow I also wanted to share my experiences my my tips my my fails so if you are starting now we don't have to

repeat my own mistakes and the objective here is to try and bring more folks into the hardware makers community that have a security mindset I think the the community the harder making movement already have started to grow in the security sense so to speak but there are space for for for more folks to come and have fun building cool stuff before III do to talk about what I was doing what I am doing at the moment I want to talk a bit of what is 3 so I want to talk about historical devices that were built because that it was the only way to hack into something ok and I want to start with this guy

Marlin masculine it was a British musician and inventor and it was probably the first wireless hacker so this guy was a self-taught radio enthusiast he built his own radios and antennas and it was getting really professional because some of the antennas were like reaching 50 meters high this was in 1903 around around that area in the beginning of the 19th century and of the 20th century so it was a public detector of Marconi Marconi had a lot of patents about radio at the time and I think he had a a problem with that maybe you already have a bit of hacker mentality and you didn't like those patents so in a public demonstration that Marconi did he

actually built the radio and he set up a small radio next to the West End musical where the demonstration was going to happen and he hacked into the the demonstration by sending a Morse code message that was a very dirty poem some people found it funny those who knew Morse code it did it because he wanted to bring the attention that Marconi was saying that he invented the new method to secure communications via wireless via writing in this case and his idea was that if an attacker does not know the frequency in which the message was being transmitted then he could not hear the message so the youngest security was the frequency for us now it's pretty

clear that that's not a measure of security but please keep in mind it was the early days of radio and in his mind it was impossible to know which frequency guy was transmitting moving forward we got marian rejewski so it was a Polish mathematician and cryptologists that invented the bomba Cryptologic this was a year of the World War two it was presented with the problem that the Germans were using an encryption machine called enigma and they had no way to decode that these messages so Rochelle ski reverse engineer the military enigma only with a commercial version of that machine and some encrypted messages so it was quite a feat and then he built the bomba

Cryptologic which which was like six enigma machines like glued together so to speak and it could correct the German codes at least at first then the Germans changed something and it stopped working and then Alan Turing built his own bomb which was based on the Bromberg crypto Logica it was designed just to to hack into the Enigma codes there's too much to say about cheering and his contributions I don't think we all be here maybe if it wasn't for its contributions but then also William Welshman made a contribution to the bomb that made possible to decrypt the German messages in a timely fashion so again a hardware that was built for the purposes of hacking in this case in the

cryptology field now moving on to the 50s I want to talk about doing gracia or joy bubbles J bubbles was were born blind and when he was four he discovered the the telephones and he was really into the telephones for a blanket maybe there was not much to do at that time and he discovered he could dial numbers just by clicking the on and off button on the phone and when when he was seven when he was dialing a number he noticed there was some tones he could hear and he decided to whistle back those phones and the call hanged up so I thought this is funny something is happening turns out that he had

2,600 Hertz pitch while it was whistling and he could effectively make the switchboard think that the call was disconnected but continued to talk so this is a way to have a free phone calls and at the time the phone calls were very expensive especially the long-distance so this guy didn't actually build anything any artwork I think that he had the hardware building it has a very nice story for those who the other year I think everybody knows about vocals maybe the younger don't but this was the the beginning of a revolution the sixties and seventies gold Golden Age so the freaker's back then which was the phone hecklers there was a couple of guys also blind that contacted the guy

called John Draper and saying look we have a way to acting to the telephone systems but we have to carry around or whistles or we have tape recordings of the 2600 Hertz tone and that takes too much trouble if we had like some sort of box where we can dial and that we have we can generate the tones that will be very cool so they contacted John Draper also known as Captain Crunch and John Draper had a electrical engineering background and he built the first blue box now the blue box was a tone generator it could be used to tow out of stuff including what joy bubbles first discovered but then it from there a lot

of different boxes were made by freaker's it was a very prolific time building order into a racking systems like the the red box would fool the electronic it would fool the the two services into thinking that a coin was introduced at the payphone the orange box would allow you to change your caller ID so a lot of boxes the blueprints were online shared in BBS's and it was a very prolific time for for hardware manufacturers in this case flippers now in 1985 this guy called the neck and that's when she published a paper about electromagnetic radiation from video display units from monitors and not only he published the paper as he built a device with it was

essentially a screen a decoder and an antenna and it could point the antenna to any screen and get the the what's on that screen remotely without interference it's also called tempest freaking auto Tempest means specific things in a security field but the security community was very concerned because that decoder could be built with around 15 dollars of material so there's also some videos online about the BBC program that's that was made so this this kind of vulnerability gained a lot of media attention also like we see nowadays with some vulnerabilities and the guy came to be known by Vanek radiation this kind of radiation later in 98 Porco sure it was it was a principal designer of deep crack whip

crack was essentially a machine built to crack the DEA's challenges that are RSA security made back in 1997 to demonstrate that DES was broken was not supposed to be used because it was no longer safe so des challenges to was the first one that did crack participated and it was solving 656 hours deep crack was made of 100 1856 ayzik chips like soldiered together and it was the brain of deep break so there are a lot of examples I'm sure I'm very sure that some of them that are important I didn't mention but we have to fast forward in time to get to we are today so several things were happening somewhere along the way the

internet was born the community started to grow in strength in switching knowledge from the BBS's into the internet which also the vendor started to produce more accessible devices there are a lot of microcontrollers now that the obvious were using like basic stems pitch AV ours g8 is the 8080 also so and there was like a boom of websites that facilitated access to all the parts or to exotic parts that obvious could not have access before and and then later on Alibaba if the road for the Chinese suppliers to flew the market with cheap material or student cheap stuff so at the same time hyperspace movements mushroom in every major cities now it's a common place everybody knows what an

anchor space is and they kind of democratize the the access to this knowledge into the community access and sharing of knowledge the Arduino helped to bring more students and later the Raspberry Pi and nowadays we have the ESP is that allows us to as an office to put Wi-Fi almost in every project even if it's a toaster and even if that makes no sense online PC playmakers are also an important part for the Abhi's because now it's easier than ever to send your own PCB for fabrication at a price that is not prohibited primitive and others fabricator services like 20 bringing services moved so now we are here today and I think we live in privileged times

for the hardware of okay I think it's it's very easy for us as even if you're obvious even if you're starting now in having liked soldier anything you can start there are communities everywhere the information is abundant the parts are cheap easy to find and especially starting kids exist for most of microchips for example let's say you find you find out that the microchip has this particular function that you want to use and in your project back in the days you had to you know read the older that datasheet and then use all the circuitry involve the analog circuitry involved to make that chip work and nowadays it you can find that in starting kids so you can test your

idea before you going deep into the the analog part and in the soldiering part which i think is something that scares people that like most of us has have a very strong software engineering background but not so much in electrical engineering so sometimes we are afraid to start projects because we you know we don't know where to put the resistor or the condenser or whatever so the starting kids are also helpful and I think for all these reasons there was a boom of hardware that was built just with the security or maybe to test security in in the last like five years or so so I'm pretty sure you know most of these devices like you know the

famous rubber ducky and proc smart and packaged squirrel over there the USB cooler which is will but anyway it's it's hardware and it demonstrates a security flaw or something and you see there are more complicated projects than others it doesn't stop them from being useful I'm pretty sure you also know this this little guy here and on this corner it's not another project per se but you know you grab a board and you put a display and then you have an entire community around around this device which is quite funny so this is where we are today and what I want to talk about is my my harder build approach I want to share it it's not

it's something that's pretty straightforward I'm not saying it should be adopted in any way your mileage may vary but I think it's a good approach if you're trying to start to build a prototype not a product but a prototype so you can test your own prototype and I will place this presentation on a pet project of mine that I started so usually you have like I have seven different phases like the first one motivation is not really well it's a phase of the project slow the idea has to come from somewhere right there are people that always that are keep getting ideas oh it will be so cool if there was a device to do this or to do that and or

then the motivation comes out of necessity like I really needed a device to do you know something after you have that initial idea and that you want to materialize as a prototype you have to to go to the definition phase for me the definition phase is like just to write down what are the features that I want in that in that particular device / features and after I have my features I go research for the components or the parts that can help me implement those features on an actual device and then I go into the design I figure out all the pieces connect together and design the the schematics and then the PCB and so far I you don't spend a

lot of money or almost no money and then it starts the part that you actually spend a little money which is sourcing the parts finger up figuring out where are you going to buy them from also the the PCB if you are ordering the PCB if you are making it yourself if you are ordering assemble everything here has different costs and and speed of course and then there's the fabrication part if you are doing some parts yourself then the test then the look if you're not happy with your device or you want to add some features you go back to the definition phasing and you loop it until you are you are happy so I'm going to

talk about each of these topics using an example of a hardware that I that I do so making of who buried the other is called kuba he'd like this has this idea has been brewing on my head for for too long this is part of the motivation and there was a time that I actually needed that hardware it would be nice to have to head so since necessity is the mother of every invention as I decided I should start you know building it so this is your friend we bought a phone technician that some of you know that was doing a social engineering gig so my test was to go inside a company's office which I had

no knowledge about the inside and I was there to change the router for one of my own which I had two days to to build something today that's just a package school inside the router so what happened is since I was going inside the building I didn't have knowledge of what I was going to find I will carry I carried a lot of different devices that I could drop or replace or put in on a computer and at some point I had like the Robert on my head on one hand and a Wi-Fi key logger on the other and I was like this makes no sense I have like two devices and if I have like this one opportunity

only one opportunity to access the computer I'm not going to insert the two devices it makes sense that all these features like if you have a bad USB injection device and you have a key logger and then you have Wi-Fi all these features make sense in only one device especially because if you have something like the rubber ducky and you leave it there it's a bit conspicuous I think what you have if if you have something connected to the keyboard maybe there's a better chance for that to go and notice please that was my reasoning and that's why I actually started the the project that and another reason that I stayed there so over USB

man-in-the-middle device the idea is to have an input and an output and to have a brain that can mangle the packets and do whatever he wants to do but the initial application that I found out was to be a Wi-Fi key logger and injecting at the same time also since we are plugging in a USB device it can also you know mimic a mouse and whatever heat devices that you can think of if you do the firmware for that of course so I searched the usual suspect shop for this kind of harder I couldn't find anything quite like it I found similar things but I didn't found a project that involved every everything and I think this was the

final motivator to start this project but this should not keep you from also beginning a project of your own in my opinion so as I said this is a an approach toward towards building a prototype not a product okay so I broke down the project proportionalities I search for existing parts that could perform some of all the actions that that I wanted of course if I found a part that perform all the actions and problems of I figure out how you connect them and then you read the find documentation and data sheet or manual depending to make it work so the functionalities here this is the research part the functionality is the key locking part the injection part in

the Wi-Fi part so we have three major functionalities and for that for the injection part I based on and we know in our the device there's a that mega that runs this device can do hid injection so problem solved you can buy a lot of those clones of beg USB clones like rubber ducky clones for three but it's not very expensive problem solve for the Wi-Fi part as I use the esp8266 it's also cheap I've used it before it's powerful than an Arduino that's why I chose it to be the brains of the device so also problem so for the keylogger part I have not I haven't worked with that before so I researched a bit I come

I came out with this max 34 22 21 chip which has SPI I know that the espys speak spi so for me it was just a matter of figuring out how can I make all these components talk to each other also wipers already exist for the next 3421 in the arduino ide which i could use to program any device DSP and their arduino so from there we get to the design phase my advice is if you're starting something and you're not used to electronic design automation software is to try at least a couple of them and I'm going to explain so I don't think they are very user friendly opinions may vary but I don't think they are very user

friendly and some some things that you can do in in one particular ABA it's harder to do in another and I think it's useful for you to try like a small project from start to finish until the PCB is made in different EDS and elect you're the one that you like and then continue to use that it will save you a lot of time and then in the design phase I think it's important to choose your parts wisely you have to know if you're going to solder it yourself if you are going to fabricate the PCB board yourself are you going to order the PCB all of these things influence how you should choose the part because if you

are going to solder them it might not be a good idea to order very small parts and try to make the project very very small at least for a prototype in my opinion so I choose legal yeah I usually fail to listen to my own advice but this is the project it's essentially it's the ESB connected to the max 3421 which is USB OS which is the the the microchip that actually receives when you plug in a keyboard and since the data so on the important part here as I was saying is to know your package types and know the smg's and keep it simple the simple you are your I think it's it's common sense

the simple your project is the easier it is to debug and easier it is for for the EA software to find the correct routes when you're designing the the PCB when I say package type I refer to to the mechanical specifications of the microchips there are different package types and each one makes it easier or harder for you to soldier them if you are sodium shortening yourself so just to give you an idea this is a list of package types for different microchips and it goes on so it depends if it's through-hole or not it depends that the spacing between the legs of the microchip does it have legs if you have an electronic background you are familiar with this

but if you're not sometimes it can be confusing so for example about SMD sizes SMD are the very small components on the board sometimes it can get really really annoying for example there are two coats when you are ordering the metric code and the imperial code and sometimes they overlap which is really really annoying if if you do not if you are not specific enough when you're ordering or if your supplier mixes mix it up because this is the difference between if you order like the zero six zero three imperial code you get a part that is one point six millimeters by zero point weight eight millimeters but if someone switches the order or you don't specify its imperial

code and you receive the metric code then you have to soldier something that is zero point three millimeters in size and you are going to be able to do it by hand okay so know your SMD sizes my recommendation for me what I found out that works better is to use the zero eight zero five it has to buy one millimeter roughly and it's quite manages I mean you need pliers but it's quite manageable and you can replace the components by hand if you really have to some some folks go for a smaller size that's okay if you if you are used to you know - if you don't shake much from me from your hands and you're used to

soldier but I think it's a good start regarding package types I think it's the same if you've had if it has I wouldn't choose a packaging type that has less than 0.5 millimeters between the lights otherwise when you're soldiering it it gets stuck a lot of a lot of the times then you have to be debugging sometimes it's you know you short-circuit something that's very small for you to see you have to go with with magnifier and you end up losing a lot of time and in the end if you are doing a prototype maybe it's not so important that you are doing it like one centimeter bigger or or smaller so after that you go to the PCB design

phase it is essentially a mapping of your circuit schematics into the put the proper layers of the PCB and the the copper the copper wires so to speak the copper traces so I used ego ego it has a cool outer root function this is what I recommend for if you are choosing an EDA if it has out early it's better for you but mainly what it does is it translates this these connections in the schematics to the proper copper traces automatically and you don't have to draw it by hand you can draw it by hand if it's a small project but if it's a big project it's it's really hard to do everything by hand so if you're

starting yeah choose one that has outer route and the Ottoman function for me ego was enough for this project so this is kind of kind of why I chose it did I mention to double check the thing before before going into production if not please double check after after the design phase is done please double check if you don't you end up with problems like this where I switch the data - and data plus and in the first in the first version and then I fabricated I don't know 50 words and then they came and nothing worked and then I realized I switched just to couple traces in the end I did I did the

new device and I cut it I cut the traces here with the knife and I solder some wires so I could spend some time programming while while the others were making and and I wouldn't lose a lot of time so then you got right now after the design of schematics maybe you don't spend a lot of money and now we are going to source the parts I'm not here to promote any vendors but I can give you tips after if you want just make sure you choose your your PCB manufacturer and you have to know if you have if you want to make a lot of a lot of words or because it changes between

the course changes if you are doing a lot of words of course some something else have special prices for prototypes there aren't a lot but there are already vendors that you can say ok this is a prototype build me just like 10 boards and the prices would be would be very accessible some some vendors received the list of parts and they assemble it all so you don't have to end soldier nothing this is usually more expensive solution at least if you're doing a very limited batch and if you if you're like doing some I avoid sensitive circuitry you should go for high-quality PCB manufacturers usually the Americans are good and also the Germans so my

experience is that the most cost effective way is to order the PCB and order the parts separate separately and then you soldier yourself because it's not it's really not not that hard so when you order your board if you're choosing that pet or the distance this vessel is this metal intelligent here that helps you position the soldier at the right spots in your board because then the soldiering test becomes easier if you use a hot-air gun instead of the traditional iron to soldier it's it's not very difficult it's you don't need like I take expensive expensive you just need to practice a bit there are some kits available that you can buy to practice very small stuff soldiering

without you damaging your own boards if you want like that's the hot air gun that I use it costs like 15 euros it's very very cheap it's gas-powered because I travel a lot and I like to drive it with me so it doesn't have temperature control or nothing but it's manageable and you can use it in your projects you don't have to spend a lot of money and my two favorite methods to soldier is the direct soldier method and author soldier I had some videos I'm not sure if time but if you have I will show you the both methods so after always then you get to the testing phase if everything works its tested if not at the first time then you

have to go test yourself so I don't I need to use nothing fancy that's standard multimeter the only thing that I like in a multimeter is that it has an audible function for continued continuity testing so I don't have to be looking at the multimeter and the things that I'm testing if I'm testing for continuity there's some kind of puzzle that indicates me let's say some time if you have budget getting off spacio scope this this one is DF 2 or 3 it's like a portable oscilloscope it goes around for 150 it's a bit expensive and it's not really super necessary and sometimes if you have a lot of ink weighted circuits it helps to have a

thermometer because I've burned myself so many times so it helps you identify which which integrated circuits are overheating or not and you don't have to either your finger so essentially the testing part is you review the PCB and the schematics you figure out if the relationship are properly well done you analyze the board to see if everything is properly soldered and if not you just start to test each connection so it's a net really iterative process so this was kind of the loop cycle this this three here were the first components that I separated by functionality so this was the arduino leonardo part this was a ESP board with Wi-Fi and this this is a

starting kit for the mix so i just connected a bunch of wires too many wires actually and tested if my idea was valid or not if i could make something work as soon i wish i was sure that I could make something work of our of there then I designed the PCB the first iteration which was flawed and then I got to the second iteration and then I got really excited and printed a 3d case and it's stuff like that but do you not have to do it so so this is kind of the evolution of the art world process for me it's it's very early stage in early stage it's not done of course but it it

kind of works now so in the Hoover hit prototype is an esp8266 by the USB key logger that has keystrokes and mouse injection and Wi-Fi capabilities so I started the basic firmware development there's like injection capabilities for mouse and for keyboard but like some features that I would like to see were like the part that you you have the P log management password candidates like if the keyboard is idle for too long probably the first thing the user types is the password for example injection payload the functionalities management like import pillows from other devices like the rubber ducky we're not seems like a cool feature in the Wi-Fi section you could have like access point management Wi-Fi

scan to scan for nearby web access point you can have a text like for example let's say if you want to know the Wi-Fi password right in a way that does not interfere with the computer so to speak so you can watch the authentication detect to the computer that that whoever it is connected to the if it's if you do it times enough then the operating system will require you to reenter the password and then you get the Wi-Fi password without even running code in the computer or running a commenting to write the password and then send it back to you so I think the the features are just your imagination is the limit to

the number of features that you can add to this thing so I wanted to show a demo but in fact I've been I was afraid that the time was not enough so I've been demoing this the whole time because I have one disconnected to my computer and this is the inner of the web interface that's connected to the computer so I can you know go back and forward I can show you like the type o matic rate of the thing here for example yeah so it that's really really fast so it could be faster but then it would be complicated for the serial connection sometimes the the keys could drop so also like running commands

like opening a browser plus two fastest on-screen it's open the browser for my github just by clicking a button this is features that already are available in our this project is open source the hardware part in the software part so if you want to join in and feel feel free there's a lot of stuff that that we could do let me just go back to the presentation so yeah so I think my final words are we live in a fantastic time to tinker with with hardware ok I think the security community is getting is well deserved and gadgets there are a lot of projects already but I think there's space for more projects I think there's there's a

lot of potential for the security minded folks to come into the other makers movement and and do a lot of more more gadgets that we need and we deserve there's so much more to be invented and my idea is to try to inspire if you ever thought about making harder to do that gentle to leap in to join in I think it's it's easier than ever to do it nowadays so this would be my final words for the presentation except for one thing which is kind of awkward so while I was searching for images for that for that slide with a lot of different hardware I went to my friend the vid suppose hardware at least he has a very

nice list of hardware and he also links to other people are there lists and then I was browsing around and I saw something called key voce kevo board anyone knows what the keyboard is no okay I feel a bit better so the keyboard this guy look three makers and Matty's Vogue invented keyboard and pretty much what Hoover hit proposes to do and I started to commercialize this like some months ago only I don't have a keyboard I do nor the one yet I noticed by the pictures that they use a different USB host chip but they also used 80 mega they have a SIM version and they have a Wi-Fi portion from what I read the the

brains of the speak of this software is the atmega which limits a bit of the things that you can store there has a lot less memory but essentially the idea is kind of the same and it's it's nice to see that the hardware kind of flowed all in the same direction I was a bit pissed off I haven't found in this out like one week ago of course it but you know I had to do the shoutout it's a nice insta nice product I'm happy that I learned about this project just last week because knowing me if I have learned this like a couple of months ago when I started who were he that would

probably be the motivator but I don't think that would be good because the things that you gain going through the experience of imagining something designing on paper then going to the DDA and building the the schematics or during the entire process is quite fun to do it's very rewarding when you actually build something almost by yourself and then you see it working and if it has like that some sort of community potential even better and probably I would miss that experience if I figure this out this project a bit sooner so anyway there's the the shout outs and just I want to thank really quick some some folks I want to thank hecka died Mike from hacker Larry because the being

in touch with actually allowed me to do and write about other projects allowed me to keep my hardware skills a bit sharper I guess I want to thank Jason Engels because he was a huge supporter of my first order project and overall thank you various for your kind words and if it suppose we all miss you here we will see you next year I'm pretty sure thank you for your support Thanks question

by the way thank you by the way I have some Hoover heat kids like the actually harder that you can soldier yourself or what a bunch of a bunch of different components and I have some that if you're interested in your project if you want to try it and you want to soldier yourself please come find me and I don't have a lot but if you are interested in participating in the project I will give them to you okay thank you that's it so does anybody have any questions questions it's show hands [Music] I wondered what your first project was cuz you mentioned that there was someone in particular helped you through your first Hardware project yeah well my

first like real ordered I had the first project a long time ago but my first like real ardour project that I went through all this process was called my clock it was a piece of hardware designed to figure out with which were the positions of gunshots it's strange but it has a background I had some hunters hunting near my house and I want to figure out where they were so I had I made something that triangulate the position by with an array of microphones that was the initial idea anyone else I [Music] guess not [Music] so I wanted to ask regarding the Wi-Fi antenna you you placed on the board the planar antenna how did you copy it did

you go through process what's your process to reaching that that level or that layout for the antenna you're talking about the Wi-Fi yeah in the in the ESP module of the module or did you copy no no it's part of the module I didn't design that that part that's the wonderful thing you can just nowadays you can buy different modules I mean of course if you're doing a project like a professional project you should hire at least one magical engineer electronic with strong backgrounds properly design and circuits but if you're working in prototypes you can just choose the components and choose components that already do some part of the work that you need and just

figure out how to couldn't connect them and that way you kind of sheet and bypass all the analog circuitry that you need to know kind of that's why I always try to bring all my projects into the digital world where I can easily manage them instead of fighting with the analog part of the project because I don't have an electrical engineering background at all I paid nice to meet you I want to know if you have any plans on planting a mic on your device because it should be very interesting and I don't know well I think you can ask that as a feature during the project and you know in the other design part of Geetha is just plant a mic I

didn't thought about mics and I know there are another at least one device that does something like that that records the songs well who knows hello I know it's an open-source project but are you planning on selling the mounted product for those that don't have the skills to mount it themselves or by the hardware well I don't know I think it depends on the interest I'm not going to say that the idea did not cross my mind at some point but right now I'm more worried that people work on it and it's an open platform because I don't there's no really open maybe there is I didn't you know my research skills are not very good but I know that at least

this platform is hardware is open source software is open source we can work on it and build something maybe it makes sense to offer a mounted version of it an assembled version but given that everything is going to be open source I'm pretty sure that Chinese will do it for me pretty fast so I don't know okay thank you any more no because we wanted to say something about how are you brought with you and the vid maybe well so the trade you wanted to do oh yeah so the visa this awesome idea about if you have like hardware that you don't use or gadgets that you don't use for us to all bring it to besides and have a

table maybe at beer sides later on where the city F will some table and if you want we could trade like old stuff or all the electronic stuff maybe it's just you and me David but we will be there trading our own stuff which we need to I have a USB pen I can't write perfect okay thank you please in the meanwhile you can clap