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Signal Safari

BSides NYC · 201836:3711 viewsPublished 2023-04Watch on YouTube ↗
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An exploration of radio frequency fundamentals and software-defined radio (SDR) techniques for discovering and reverse-engineering wireless signals. The talk demonstrates affordable SDR tools, free Linux-based analysis software, and practical methods for identifying mystery signals—from garage door openers to fan remotes—while reflecting on RF security challenges and the importance of curiosity-driven hacking.
Show transcript [en]

a lot of fun if you are interested in that talk that's actually someone else from my company but he did that talk two years ago so if you ping him maybe he'll share that information still he's a pretty cool guy um so sorry to let you down but are you okay with being streamed absolutely yep streaming is cool so um thanks all for coming out I know it's late uh today in b-sides and there's you've already learned so much and I'm sure your brain is already exploding with how much you've already learned but I hope you'll bear with me just a little bit more this is a topic that's kind of near and dear to my heart so it's RF

controls with software defined radio sort of uh blending the two in an investigation I found that software-defined radio is a topic that a lot of people are curious about but they don't always necessarily take the chance to go play with it so I thought I'd kind of uh cut out the middleman and give you a chance to see what it's like playing around with these controls how affordable it can be and uh just kind of how it's a great way to use the hacker mindset even if it doesn't directly apply to your work right away so to get us started um has anyone of course my clicker doesn't work that's how it works right oh there we go

um has anyone here used a software-defined radio before awesome that's a lot of hands um I'm guessing but just for fun uh who's been curious about software defined radios but not got a chance to play with them yet excellent that's that's great so if you're looking for new projects if you're looking for fun things to do if you've been curious about some of the radio research that's come out recently and it just seems like maybe it's a topic where you you'd almost get it but you haven't gotten there yet then this is definitely great there's a lot of signals out there in the world around us um so I do want to stress the air is

well it's it's uh kind of silly to say the air is full of signals but I like to think of it that way because it's got this magic ring to it um everything you do everything you use to communicate these days is over the airwaves in colloquial terms but we don't really investigate it all the time so taking the chance to step back and see what's out there there's this whole world it's almost like there's signals of different types and different flavors and uh you know they've got different categories and attributes that some of them are more difficult to understand than others some of them are practically legendary and uh sometimes I do wonder if we can catch them all

I apologize for the bad Pokemon joke but not really um there's a lot of Pokemon stuff in the slide deck so I hope you'll bear with any uh corniness to come I enjoy it for a little bit of an overview for what we're doing today I'm going to give an overview of RF fundamentals so some of you might already know some of you might not but I'll keep it pretty quick either way um and then we're going to look at how to tune around with software defined radio that's quite affordable after that we're going to look into a few different signals with different tools that I really like that are all free and available on Linux so you can play

around with them without too much investment at all we'll close by sort of reflecting on the state of RF security and you know what makes it tricky what makes it you know maybe something we want to look into more in the future and what you should do if this has sparked an interest and maybe you want to spend a little more time with this topic so to get us started um RF all travels as electromagnetic waves electromagnetic waves by definition all go the speed of light so they're all going the same speed the length of the wave is what changes and that's what we call the wavelength and based on that if you have a longer

wavelength then you have a oh wow then you have usually I don't lose on this one um if you have a shorter wavelength you have a higher frequency if you have a longer wavelength then you have a lower frequency so you're probably used to hearing terms like megahertz or kilohertz and uh that's where those terms come in for denoting frequency quick way to remember that relationship is that if you multiply the frequency by the wavelength you'll always get back to the speed so they're very similar these are the tools that we're using in our theoretical investigation today we've got what's called an RTL SDR it's about a 30 USB dongle that you can get online it comes with a little antenna

you plug it into your computer and that provides all the hardware you need to receive the signals and then your computer will provide all of the software elements so that's the software defined radio part for processing those signals and displaying it back to you and of course when you get the combination of one would argue anything with open source you get magic but uh software defined radios plus those tools can lead to some pretty interesting times there's good tools for Windows as well but today is just Linux so let's take our first steps we're starting out uh we're just knowing a little bit about radios and RF signals and we know they're around but we don't

really know what they look like or where they hide or how they're different from each other so let's get started with gqrx I really love this tool it's super simple you just fire it up and you can tune your software-defined radio around like you would a normal radio and you get this beautiful view that's called the waterfall that shows you the change or it shows you what amplitudes are happening so what signal strengths at different frequencies so you can see a big chunk of Spectrum which we call like different ranges of frequencies and what's happening at different frequencies so I've got a little bit of a demo to show on that it is just a video that

I've taken but you can see once you fire up gqrx you immediately can see what's going on here the frequency I've got it tuned to right now is 89.9 megahertz so it's just an FM radio station and you can see the rise and fall of the signal with someone's Voice or with the music um and you've got different filters a lot of different tools and little uh settings that you can tweak within there you can change the gain if you want to make it louder though sometimes that can get a little bit weird since it's slightly different than volume you can change the color if you don't like a blue radio signal for whatever reason

um and you get the opportunity to you know you can type in new frequencies to look at maybe I want to listen to a different station or maybe I want to tune around I can pull the bar back and forth and see what else is at frequencies nearby if I'm just sort of looking around different spaces of spectrum so now I'm going to look at some am signals this the rtlsdr cannot reach traditional AM radio frequencies but it can reach frequencies that you might be familiar with if you've ever listened to for instance a police repeater scanner or a scanner for repeating police signals so some signals that are communicated um right now if they're not critical

usually critical signals will have a higher level of security but you can find conversations people are having for business purposes or if someone's on patrol or something like that up in around like the 470 480 megahertz range so here I've just tuned around you'll notice I'm not really seeing anything yet sometimes you have to go back and forth because people aren't always talking like on the radio they're just kind of you know only talking when they have something to say so here we finally picked up some signals we found it we've gone to this weird area of frequency that we're not familiar with and we've found signals if I was using audio which I'm not today you'd be able to hear you

know maybe someone's calling in a patrol situation or they're just saying that it's really boring that night I don't know that's that's their business so for a little bit more of going backwards whoop there we go so for uh more of an overview of the Spectrum in general this is generalized this doesn't show everything but it's just kind of a sense of what lives where in the world of you know the uh the Safari of signals where they all live so at the lower range we've got the um AM radio signals that you're familiar with the next band like region of bands up if is anyone an amateur radio Operator just curious got a couple so 10 meters all the way

through 80 meters is in that band that I've outlined so if you're used to speaking with other people over long distances using your own radio equipment that's why you'd be an amateur radio operator and it's a pretty fun hobby too moving up from that we get into What's called the very high frequencies so we have television frequencies we have FM radio which is a bit more compact than AM radio because of how it's communicated you'll also notice that I've got some white boxes there and those white boxes are where the control signals that we're looking at today all hide so everything we're looking at is within those little Stripes you might notice it's all around

like the ultra high frequency range um and that's because it's good for near-range communications because it is a shorter or a higher frequency and a shorter wavelength there's more details to that but I won't get too in depth um I'm sure everybody is familiar with the Wi-Fi so we get up into the 2.4 and 5 gigahertz and a lot of cellular communication is around there as well zooming in on those white boxes that I had these are the exact ranges that those tend to live so why these ranges are significant is that they the top four ones you'll notice I wrote ISM there that's industrial scientific and medical so if you have equipment that you want to develop and you need a place

to let it operate but you might not want to get it FCC licensed since it's a very long process this is a slice of spectrum that your device is allowed to operate as long as it's within the rules for that section which is basically your device just needs to accept interference if it gets interference it can't do anything nasty you know if something sends it the wrong signal it can't start jamming everything so just sending lots of weird signals so there's those four ISM we've got 433 megahertz 915 megahertz uh we've got you know 2.45 and 5.8 gigahertz and you'll notice I'm referring to them all by the center frequency so there is a lower and

an upper bound to each of these ranges and devices if someone says the devices at 433 megahertz it might not actually be there it might be a little bit above a little bit below just means that it's generally in that range and then the last slice I've got is what's called 315 megahertz and that is an unlicensed area of operation for various devices so great we know where our controls are going to be um a little bit about how they operate we have amplitude shift keying and frequency shift keying and these are just super simple ways of saying one and zero so if you're used to you know having like a voltage change for one or

zero here we just have a signal difference so for amplitude shift keying it's just based on the length of a pulse if you're familiar with Morse code it's kind of like that but for bits so you have a short pulse here for a zero and a long pulse for a one and then below that it's the exact same data but with frequency shift keying so we have a lower frequency for our zero and a higher frequency for R1 this is our first mystery signal does anyone want to guess our mystery signal sure go ahead a power switch that's pretty much it yeah so I use it as a light switch this is just a super simple RF controller I

you know I'm lazy I don't want to get out of bed every day to turn my lights on and off maybe I just want the lights on and stay in bed do that sometimes um and they've got these controllers on Amazon that are super cheap so I don't have to pay for fancy home automation or anything but I'm kind of curious how do these work are these actually secure can I trust that you guys aren't all going to come around my apartment just turn the lights on and off and on and off at 4am I don't know let's find out so I'm holding this controller in my hands and I'm like um well I can see it I know

what it is but I don't really know anything about it you know how do I discover information on this and it's almost like I wish I had an encyclopedia or some kind of like a like a signal decks that would be great and just kind of point it at the signal say tell me what this is tell me what it's saying and it would say oh yeah I got that and just translate it for you it would be so cool if there was a tool like that wouldn't there so I looked around there actually is it's amazing there's a tool just like that it's rtl433 I'm a huge fan of this tool it's a command line tool and it

will scan around various frequencies and tell you what it finds and decode them into ones and zeros sometimes it has little profiles as well that other people have made so it can decode the signal a little bit more in this case I just used it with uh the dash QA so the dash a is to look around and the dash queue is just making it be quiet so it's an easier demo um and you can see I've pressed the button there and in that box I have the signal that I've gotten back in video it looks a little bit more exciting so I've started up The Tool and now I'm pushing the button and you can

see I've got the signal back I've got something else in there which is I'm going to disregard that because that's not when I push the button and then Yep looks like when I push you know the the one on or something like that I get the same thing back if I push a different button I get that one some of you might be noticing these signals look the same every time hmm interesting so since they look the same I figured what the heck let's map them out let's let's call this a very simple reversing exercise it'll be fun so just arbitrarily I'm going to line up all of the commands for when I push the

different buttons we've got lights one through four and then turn everything on and turn everything off and we've got an on and off reach and lining them up I've inserted some spaces based on groupings that I think look significant within here so the first 10 bits are always the same so that must be either you know hey I'm a remote or hey I'm this remote not somebody else's remote listen to me and then it seems like for all lights we've got one bit set up for one light we've got a certain thing and then we've got almost like an ID for which switch should turn on so which Outlet I've got so is it Outlet one is it two is it

three and then the on and the off change so we've got like a zero zero one one for on and a one one zero zero for off so now we can sort of translate this into a sentence when I push the button for a specific you know if I'm going for two on I can see what bits mean it's saying this is remote and you know whatever its name is in binary and turn switch 2 on so as simple as it might seem this actually is signal reversing so we made it we've gone from something I was holding in my hand and I had no idea what it was to saying when I push this button this happens in this way

and it's always the same signal every time so again those of you with a sort of a hacking security mindset might have already noticed um this is definitely vulnerable to replay attacks so if someone wants to come by with the signal and just sort of play it over and over again yeah I'm gonna have a pretty bad night it's our second mystery signal and I know it's so mysterious you can't even tell what buttons it has or what it does anyone want to guess it's a fan that's actually perfect yeah it's a fan amazing so this is a fan remote it's got more buttons it's a little more complicated you can turn the light on and up and down in different

percentages you can make the fan go different speeds cool so I tried running rtl433 on this I'm like all right I've got this figured out this reversing thing pretty cool just push a button get the answer nah didn't work for this one so rtl433 will only with those options give you things at 433 megahertz we don't know what frequency this is at so we could tune around with gqrx but it's still got limited features maybe we want to have a different view maybe we won't want to see once we find the frequency how the signal is changing over time without the waterfall we want to see the ones and zeros a little more clearly um and maybe you know we're we're ready

to step out and start using tools that let us make our own radios almost our own software to find radios to run so that if we ever want to build something that can transmit we're ready to do that or give it different views all kinds of exciting things so to kind of line them up next to each other gqrx is a tool that runs using canoe radio which is sort of the libraries and the functions that support all of these tools and gnu radio companion which we're about to use is something it's a visual tool that lets you line up blocks and then create your own software-defined radio to run so I love it a lot I think it simplifies

a lot of what could be complicated about this since there's a lot of math you have to abstract and decoding those signals so I've set up a simple um new radio companion file for this and you can see way over on the left I've got what's called a GUI slider and that's kind of like a variable we've declared this variable of what frequency we want to look at and since it's a slider when we hit play and it makes the radio for us we'll be able to pull the slider back and forth and look at different frequencies you can't actually see it in the other blocks here but wherever the um 300 megahertz comes up for the frequency

we've defined that is I've actually typed in the settings for that block to use that freq GUI slider instead so it's using that variable to know what frequency we it should be looking at um we've got the RTL SDR source which is very important this is basically just a chunk of code that says how to handle signals from the software-defined radio we're using and then we've got the fast Fourier transform sync so that's kind of like what we were seeing before in gqrx it shows us the amplitude of different signals or different frequencies across a range of frequencies and then this thing we've got down below is new this GUI scope so this shows us the change in

amplitude over time for one frequency Whatever frequency we're looking at right now and this might give us you know a little bit of a better idea of what's going on than just looking at you know up down for all the frequencies so I've got this set up and when I press play I get something like this in order to tune this I have to make the scaling a little bit more reasonable so I'm going to zoom out a lot first of all so we can see both a bigger range of time and we can actually tell a bigger range of amplitudes where it doesn't look quite as jumpy once I've got that done I'm going to

turn on the peak hold which is kind of nice it shows you what the peak point of a signal that's been seen at the frequencies you're scanning is so if something jumps up and we miss it we might see it down there and now I can just kind of pull along with the GUI slider change the frequency to see what's happening where our fan thing is in the background I'm sort of mashing one of the buttons on the controller here and there we go it seems like we've got an area where it's pretty strong and you'll notice on the bottom there that that Peak is coming closer and closer to the middle of the display as we shift

the frequencies over so that's pretty cool once we've got this centered what I like doing is zooming out so we get a better view right now it's still pretty jumpy honestly it's all we know is that it's on and it's off it looks pretty chaotic so once we zoom out you can start seeing that some actually look a little bit longer some look a little bit shorter and a little bit more and now we can almost see the whole signal the whole message that this controller is sending coming across as those amplitude shift keying ones and zeros that we had so I think this is pretty cool too but I think a lot of this is pretty cool

that's why I'm sharing it with you so just to kind of recap on that um in my eyes that one one zero one that's what I'm doing um you can see them coming in we've got a shorter pulse that one's a zero longer is a one and down below we've got the peak for that signal so we could sort of do this thing I'll push every button and write down all the ones and all the zeros but if we go back and think on it we've kind of accomplished what we originally set out to do which was to find the frequency that this controller lives at now that we know where it is where it's

talking to the receiver we can just use rtl433 again which I love we can make it do all the heavy lifting so with Dash F you can specify what frequency it should look at and here I've specified that it should look at the center frequency that we sort of found our Peak at before and you'll notice it will decode similarly those ones and zeros that we were seeing coming across the screen before and save us a lot of work now I could go into some details on uh you know how I decoded this one and it was more complicated uh but because of how many different buttons were on this controller I'll admit it was a little

bit more tedious even though it was still really interesting and a great way to build a new tool so I thought I'd spend the rest of the time looking into uh one more mystery signal that I found so this is all just me rummaging around boxes in my apartment and seeing what RF controls I have and at the bottom of one box Dusty and lost from my move from Los Angeles I found this mystery signal which I'm sure none of you can tell what it is nobody knows what this is that's not a car key no and if anyone wants to try and duplicate said key go I had the cars long gone so excellence

let's look into this people like cars right cars are cooler than fans cars are cooler than light switches and sometimes car hacking comes up in the news we get all excited our cars are gonna get stolen maybe I can if I still had that car maybe I could break into my own car I would not break into anyone else's car that would be a bad thing so investigating this device if we do a little bit of searching we find that most car control you know lock unlockers are going to be at 315 megahertz so we can just put that right in for rtl433 and we'll see that as we push the unlock button we are getting codes back but for

this one I'm always pushing unlock and I'm getting different codes so this is not a case of cheap light switch from Amazon level of hacking this is a bit more complicated you'll notice the beginning kind of always looks the same but after that it changes up and we might have to do some more investigation so I did some investigation online to see if anybody else had looked into this there actually was some great research last year that was done that showed the key distribution methods for the specific controller to be unfortunate that's a good word for it um and then Additionally the encryption methods for some of these controllers are not great the the device

manufacturer said that for new versions of encryption they're satisfied with the level of security on it we all know how that goes it's a work in progress right so as a field that fewer people look at sometimes it can take a little bit longer to get traction on those conversations but anyways there's the car key interesting and while I was investigating this I also noticed there's another flag I hadn't been paying attention to which is not using the ones I've been using the whole time so if I remove that Dash a flag which is just kind of a blind investigate everything in the area um it'll actually load all of these profiles that people have developed and

contributed to the project so weather stations and maybe other keys and tire pressure monitors which have been a really interesting topic as well in the past and kind of an interesting privacy question sometimes as well and if you look up here just while this was not me going out looking for TPMS this was just me sitting around being like hmm on a Tuesday night getting signals for this and I happened to cross this Toyota tire pressure monitoring system reporting back so you can there's some pretty interesting signals out there in the wild and I didn't expect to find this so you know we've still got a lot of things sort of lurking in The Tall Grass as it

were in Pokemon terms so at this point we've left our hometown we've investigated several different signals along the way I feel comfortable that I understand at least three controllers in my house sort of maybe two of them the third one the car I couldn't you know immediately understand that but it's still really interesting and I found some good research to look into if I want to keep investigating this in the future so we've kind of reached at this point the next steps and you know the the doors open you think the game's almost over and then there's so many more battles ahead of you but they're glorious battles and they're great battles and you'll remember them for the

rest of your life um and what you learned from them so uh in short I think my takeaways from this were that securing RF systems can be really tricky um the computers that run these sorts of things if I'm holding a computer that tells a car to unlock we can't really expect it to have the same level of encryption as a modern computer which is you know kind of much beefier right it can do more computations it has more battery um it doesn't have to live for years and years and years and years without getting new power so it's it's difficult that's not saying that it gets a pass right but it is saying that maybe we need more people

thinking about how to solve these creatively and looking at new channels that don't already have documentation well sometimes they do or sometimes they just have less but just sort of taking those adventures and stepping out of the comfort zone to see what's out there um things are slowly improving like in many fields that are still trying to catch up with the rest of modern what we'd call Modern security but it always helps to have more eyes on those problems and I think especially when we're developing new Solutions curiosity is so important if you think in an open-minded way about a new problem you might not find a solution but you are going through those thought

cycles and maybe you will come up with something and maybe you might say something to someone else and they'll say hey I didn't think of it that way and that could start something so I think it's important to play around and see what's out there which that is probably why I chose all of the Pokemon Illusions you know this is this is fun hacking is fun so I hope that you would agree with me in that if any of this sparked your interest I've got some more resources so that paper that I mentioned on the um VW encryption is up in the left that was at usenix security and that full paper is available um also if you're new to software

defined radios a lot of the techniques I approached I really have to say thank you to Michael Osman for he has an amazing series of courses on this up on his website for free and he's a great explainer um and teacher Sammy kamkar is also known for having tons of fun with radios so if you want more of the fun angle his ding dong ditch system was great and he also had a recent Defcon talk about car hacking actually if radios in general are something you're curious about there's decades and decades and Decades of knowledge in the amateur radio scene and they are always so eager to pass it on to the next Generation Um there's things that you won't be able

to learn commonly in books or without you know squinting at math for hours or you could ask one guy who's just known this his whole life and is very happy to give you the answer so that's a great thing and then lastly if you're picking up things in your house and you're getting curious like I am there's the FCC ID search so a lot of the times you'll you'll see you know FCC ID whatever whatever that means there's information tied to that ID so you can go and type it in and it'll tell you you know probably around what it operates what the device does this is also a really great tool for osens a lot

of the times if people are less familiar with registering to the FCC they might put too much information about their product in there so if you're developing something new if you're reversing something and it's got an RF element you might be able to find some great information there if you get stuck along the way and you can also see uh you know what's coming out on a day by day basis so that's all I've got if anyone has any questions then please feel free to ask [Applause] and we have a few minutes for questions uh what's the next thing you're going to try and to code um I think next I'm not even going to

look at SDR for a little while I think it's super interesting but I also have a uh one of those new Furbies that came out a couple years ago and there's been some really interesting research in that area too so I want to go play with the toys and that that's what I'm gonna do were there any good pages are Trunk right so if you're listening to like say you're at a hotel you're trying to listen and um you can decode that but there's like a oh so trunking yes like I like something that has something at depth on where I I didn't get in but you're getting two radios definitely right so you need one for the

trunk right isn't there I'm going to go with I I probably know about as much as you do at this point on that topic I don't want to tell you anything super authoritatively um but I would definitely encourage you to either find out find the recording and let me know so that I can know the answer to that in the future because I'm curious about it um

yeah and there are a lot that a lot of uh common Communications that are unencrypted um so they were there was a rolling yeah they were giving out the encrypt the piece to decode it so it was encrypted it was just it was yeah thanks for bringing that up um in general as well in within uh the new radio companion there are a lot of decoders for common protocols So speaking less to eavesdropping and more if you run across a signal that you're not familiar with that might be a good place to look yes well you were on your signal Safari did you see any other mystery signals that were surprising like uh like the TPMS like was there

anything else that like came up that um you didn't expect so the question is what other Mysteries I saw in my signal Safari um I saw a lot of mysterious signals so I saw things that might have been you know like digital monitors of oil um when you ask me that question though I think about how I got started on this so what got me into hacking was my original signal Safari when I was a kid uh I used to tune around all the time and you could hear amateur radio operators talking you could hear planes landing and you could hear something uh called numbers stations which used to be how Communications would get from

somewhere who knows where to some people who needed to hear a message in the field somewhere else who knows where maybe spies maybe not um and if you've never heard one of those a Numbers Station and you're looking for something really intriguing and creepy to look up I'd definitely give that a shot but uh that is probably the most mysterious signal I've found on my Safaris is there a reason that you didn't include shortwave on your spectrum diagram um so the question is why I didn't include shortwave on the Spectrum diagram and the reason for that is for these purposes I wanted to make sure that we covered the controls that we were looking at and sort of the the

Wi-Fi and the sell signals people are familiar with down to the am signals that people are familiar with so they're to sort of to that point there are a lot more signals outside of the range that we talked about today even so I definitely encourage you to uh think outside the bounds of what I've presented you all right nope so if we had like your light switch for example you showed how easy it would be to do a replay attack with that because of how it's the same signal but how easy would it be to actually get like an SDR that transmits and actually re-transmit that uh the question is how easy it would be

create the replay attack that I talked about on my r my art switch the answer is very easy there are lots of projects on GitHub for specifically that light switch um they're usually by Enthusiast home automation folks so they don't think of it as a replay attack they think of it as awesome I can do this with a raspie um so it's it's pretty easy to do um so yeah the yardstick is also a really good point there are other software-defined radios within the price point of maybe about like 100 120 dollars um the yardstick is known as one of them um and basically the cost will go up based on what range it can cover how how

wide its bandwidth can be at a given time um I think those are the big ones switch and you can what you can do is you can find out the specific frequency and after you figure it out you can buy the radio for it for like ten dollars or like five dollars the little board that does that specific frequency range so that's really interesting I didn't know that so just to repeat that comment I think everyone can hear it but um the radio specific to that remote controller is available for about ten dollars and that's another great way to replicate a replay attack if you do the same attack on wireless mouse like record and then replay it

near the company vicinity so question about would it be possible to do a replay attack on a wireless mouse um these days I'd go with probably not unless it was something that you found uh that was like a very very old wireless mouse from a strange corner of the world um and this just kind of gets into how each device handles its Communications so Wireless mice handle their Communications in a very different way there are vulnerabilities for those sometimes um in the recent history I'm thinking of the what was called like the Click jacking or the mouse jacking attacks so those are you know valid vulnerabilities they're just not you know the standard record and replay vulnerabilities

um it's possible to amplify and catch signals from uh keywords you know each job on keystrokes for this thing um so the question is eavesdropping on keystrokes with software-defined radios is that does that sound accurate okay so when I think of that I think more towards what's called like a side Channel attack unless you're using a wireless um keyboard that's vulnerable so if there's a wireless keyboard that's vulnerable and you're within range of it or if you have a very what's called a directional antenna so you can sort of catch a little bit of a signal in a specific Direction and then Amplified enough to translate it and that keyboard were vulnerable then you could

potentially recover data from it on the other hand if you just have a normal keyboard there have been some really like crazy off the walls Research into like electromagnetic fluctuations of a keyboard as someone presses the key and potentially that could lead to something but it would probably be very very specific conditions that you'd need to operate it

is yeah thank you for the questions [Applause]