The Business of Security

all right so obviously you know hello everybody welcome everybody um this is going to be the general topic today i think if we if we kind of go on that way business of the business of the business you want to say some words on this one because i'm going to uh yeah you know so so so chris and i were lamenting back and forth about the amount of soap boxes that we have stepped on and um the number of them that we have piled up to talk about and and one of the the things that i think we both landed on um was that there's a whole lot of people who rant and rave and you know definitely us too

included uh about you know the problems of the industry and how we need to get our [ __ ] together and places that we need to kind of reform at what we're doing and all that stuff but i i don't find and i think both of us were kind of in the same place we don't find that there's a whole lot of good guidance on what the business of security really is you know um we've we've both taken our lumps publicly and privately um probably much more than other people which means that i've had a lot of opportunity to fail which also means that i've learned some of those times and other times i'm just

dumb and i keep failing again um but part of what we wanted to talk about was a little bit more about what what the business side looks like you know whether it's starting your own company being part of a company um you know things that you can ask for you know maybe maybe even the things that we wish existed in in this industry in a greater capacity uh than they do today because i think that one of the things that you know as we go back and forth talking about it um one of the things that we find is that we're just such a new industry that we haven't we haven't gotten our like sea

legs underneath us right like we don't have enough uh you know whether it's mentorship or guidelines or or previous experience you know like the security industry is maybe if you're being generous 40 years old i mean and that's like being super duper generous um you know popular security industries maybe 20 years old um so we're we're the new kids on the block and and we haven't even released a good album yet we're certainly taking in all the money i mean let's face it i don't know how the hell we're managing to do it it's just like whatever freaking smoking mirrors we're managing to do we're um we're keeping it well funded kind of the whole logic for this one you know

business is booming i think on this one like do you even want to go to this one i think everybody here knows who you are who the hell they are everybody knows who you are i am trying to get away from people knowing who i am tough luck it ain't happening i'm still dragging you into a bunch of stuff because let's say this is your let's face it you are one of the finding founding fathers of this industry let's be perfectly honest probably a finding finding father i'll take that one off i have found more [ __ ] issues and problems in my own life and the in the life of the security industry than i care to admit

oh man yeah that's we are going to have to go through that [ __ ] you know what we almost need to go through i mean yeah we know the business is booming i think this is the thing it's it's it's ridiculous how fragmented this has become how many subsets of sub-segments of stuff that we do so whenever any of us like strike out and go oh we're going to go start our own freaking company it's like which one of these thousands of the ones that we want to go through it's um it's ridiculous you know this to me is also part of the lump side of it it's you know you're in the same buddha so

when we first started on this and we first worked out this it was it it was you know we were networking we were programming we were coding we were building systems and it was a lot more it was a lot easier to navigate through this and then all of a sudden all hell broke loose and everybody decided they could make money i think what are we at now 124 billion or 130 billion we're spending in this industry now annually yeah right and it's and you know you have you have averages on on the bad side of the business it you know you look you look at like the pro-serve side of the world right where

where i have to live um even even the worst segments in pro serve grow at like a 26 to 28 compound annual growth rate so you know even even if you're if you don't know a damn thing about security you just write the word security on a like parked website you'll probably get contracts um you i mean and that's the the damning part of all of it is that i think that a lot of uh a lot of the way that the industry's been funded is is starting to you know we we see these insane valuations for security companies because people are trying to figure out where the hell they can park their money and

um they're they're taking it away from i mean especially right in cobit times you know our our industry is going crazy you know the the tech industry is the only thing that's kept wall street really alive uh in in in throughout all of this and and i think as you start to look at what happens when the millionaires billionaires and etc start to figure out where do i go park my money um we start to find the dynamics of of kind of the modern day security segment where it's it's a little bit like kind of early medicine in like the the early 1900s right like i think of our industry a little bit more kind of like that show than nick right

where it's just like a bunch of like coked out doctors who are like oh man we'll just rip their heart out and put it in this other person and like it'll work and they're like do it in auditorium we want to see if it works then if it doesn't they're like ah whatever well just give them more money and they'll figure it out well and that's it it's like we i mean let's face it we've been figuring this [ __ ] out as we've been going along we've been making [ __ ] up as we've been going along and i think that's part of it and part of it now has got to the point where

like the world relies on us to do it that way there was like looking at us going uh so when are you actually going to get your [ __ ] together so you can figure some of this out i mean it's and and i think the other part that just fascinates me and not necessarily in a good way is like we get brought in to figure [ __ ] out it's like okay look you know i hear i need some of the security stuff okay yeah we've got you covered so we come in and we do everything we need to do we educate we do everything else and sometimes they listen sometimes they don't and then when [ __ ] goes wrong we get

brought in to help fix it and help remediate and recover and all this kind of good stuff then when [ __ ] goes really really wrong and typically it's ours not our [ __ ] it's the [ __ ] that they bought from vendors that sell blinky [ __ ] that's gone wrong they get charged even more money to fix it and then they get charged even even more money to get their data back from the people that took it in the first place it's just we get we get them coming and going we're worse than the used car salesman [Laughter] it's i feel so bad about that but it's true but like i think um i think i think the good

thing about recognizing some of that is that there's there's opportunity to change it yeah i think that it's it's more about how how do we change it you know like i i think the the cultural aspect of business has changed so much right like you look at you look at whatever 50 plus years ago right and you say what what is a business right what is the point of a business and every single person subscribed to the point of a business was to make as much profit as possible because if you did that you would then be serving the employees you'd be serving customers you'd be able to cost amortize all of these things and it

would do better for the global and in local economy for you to focus on making as much money as possible and i think modern business has started to finally realize that there is a double bottom line that exists and the double bottom line is that there is a sense of social responsibility that is out there where you have to not only try and get the profits but you also have to make a difference and and i think that that's the part of the security industry that we haven't been able to nail down yet because we're just too young as an industry we're still in the like [ __ ] it make as much money as you can

without really getting down to this like is the thing that i am doing culturally and socially responsible or is it just me making a shitload of money right yeah this is the stuff we were talking about we there's the ironically enough we do the [ __ ] show thursday night with uh evan and ryan and it's just it's it's that conversation and you kind of hit it it's like okay we want to be able to make a difference and i think that's where it's gotten to now i think a lot of us and this is probably part of the conversation with the businesses booming thing a lot of us have taken that step back and gone how do we

affect change how do we make a difference and if it's one of the time or a hundred at a time whatever else is like that and i think that's maybe you know you start looking a lot of folks in in our industry who are maybe inside the organizations going i can't affect change that entrepreneurial spirit is like well solid if i step outside of whatever handcuffs i'm wearing or whatever issues and challenges i have inside the industry can i step outside can i affect change more effectively if i'm independent if i'm doing my own thing if i partner up with you guys i mean let's be perfectly honest i mean look at where your focus

is look at the name of the company for crying out loud the protection side of it the ability to come in effect change and help organizations yeah i i i'd really like to figure out and and you know this maybe this is an open thing and you know a lot of the beginning of this right we uh as chris and i were talking and as the the b sites crew as was talking with us you know we we had both submitted some pretty similar like i am willing to answer absolutely anything um and when i say that i mean anything about what it is like to have been through some of the [ __ ] that we've been

through because i i have not been through the absolute weird [ __ ] that mr uh mr chris here has been through but um i've been through my own and um some of that is how difficult it is to start a business like my my immediate advice to anyone who's like i want to start my own business it's like [ __ ] it don't do it it sucks um it's it's it's terrible it's a horrible idea like live in the cog in the machine and just enjoy your role um but but there's ways to break out of it and i i think that you know like there's there's lots of things that are like super taboo to ask and whether it's

um whether it's just like you know people not feeling like they can ask those questions because you know oh i have to seem like i know everything or whether it's just you know there is there isn't enough peering in our community and stuff like that i feel like there's this like weird root of you know we got so far ahead of ourselves and telling everybody else that we knew everything that by the time it came for us to ask somebody a question we were like embarrassed to ask the questions because we were like [ __ ] i already told the person i know everything and and yeah like you're you're like up against the wall and so i

i mean i find it super hard especially in like business times of like asking people basic [ __ ] like like hey i've got you know 30 employees and i want to make their benefits better like who are you using to get better benefits and like well well you can't ask that question that's going to mean that you don't know how to run your company be like no just i'm trying to hook it up you know like and and i think that that same thing translates like both technically to you know like how do i do the thing how do i how do i try you know protect something you know what's the coolest new technology for something

i haven't been exposed to like i'm not i'm not an awesome you know devops engineer i don't know enough [ __ ] about that to you know hold weight in you know in weightlessness you know like nothing and and the best i could do is try and lean on all these people in the community that have all this awesome knowledge but if the availability isn't there for for people to ask questions without judgment i i think that that's part of the things that we keep getting into right like somebody asks a question and and they feel so self-conscious about it that that they can't they can't ask it and then a whole bunch of people suffer it might

not be one person like if i can't answer or ask that question for my company or me then how many people down the line suffer because you know i didn't i didn't have the guts to do it or i was so self-conscious that i couldn't do it well that's when i mean you know let's let's put it out there you know and this i've got the slide up for good [ __ ] that goes right but let's put it out there i mean when owl when one more labs failed um and all hell broke loose with that and then not long after i had to go into bankruptcy i put it out there i put a huge linkedin

post out there for anybody that wanted to know actually what happened rather than what they perceived what happened i put it out there i sat down and i said this is what the hell happened and this is why it happened and these are the things i got right i mean we did some pretty freaking awesome stuff you know this is the [ __ ] i got wrong and this is how i got it wrong and it's you know it's always that same philosophy it's like i don't care you're gonna make mistakes don't make the same mistakes i did make new and interesting ones and to me that was you know it's i'm doing it again i mean

i'm like the accidental one with with hillbilly hit squad now it's like okay i started back up again all of a sudden i'm like i'm sitting looking around i've got somebody looking after me and the company i've got somebody doing this like so i'm like how the hell did this happen again and i'm fortunate enough that i've made those mistakes i've done those bumps and everything else that i know to put the right things in place to do it now but you're right if i didn't i'd be casting out what you and i i mean we sat down when i was when i when i left um when i left to calvio he came over and

sat down with you and was like okay give me some thoughts i just want to sit down and i want to brainstorm with you for a little bit and do the ability to do that is fantastic but it worries me to your point that i don't think there's enough of that going on i think a lot of people are making the same mistakes but i don't think they know where to ask for people yeah and you know like i look i i will openly admit that i'm i'm usually not the smartest person um on the lowest level of the room more or less the higher level of the room like i'm i'm i'm in the like my percentile scores

like i'm in like the tens um and i and i get that right like i i just i i can fake my way through some things and other stuff you know i know a bunch of magic tricks enough to like make people believe in it uh but but at the end of the day you know i i think that there's a lot of excuses that exist out there and i know that this is so politically not cool to say but yeah whatever um you know like there there's so many reasons that people say oh i i'm not given this opportunity because of x right like like oh and and you know whether you want to blame that on your

race religion color creed sexual orientation all of this other stuff right like there is a certain portion of that that is absolutely true right where where there are people in this world who cannot see past those things but there is also a whole lot of people who are leaning on that [ __ ] and as a crutch like they're literally leaning on it as a crutch and they're stopping themselves from progressing and i'm fine with going out and [ __ ] torching the people that aren't able to see past it but at the same time yin and yang we have to realize that there are also a full sect of people out there that are just not exploring their full

potential because they're so much of a victim of their own circumstance that they don't give themselves permission to succeed and i think that just like you know i mean and literally i'm sitting here thinking that right looking at the discord channel that that like there's gatekeeping [ __ ] yeah there's gatekeeping yeah there is and you know what some of it absolutely should be [ __ ] gate kept some of it just like ken you know with a conversation we had yesterday just because i took one class in blacksmithing means that i'm a blacksmith [ __ ] no you can't do [ __ ] as a blacksmith you the best you know how to do

is is light metal and and probably light your whole [ __ ] house on fire and destroy everything that you're going to do so are there things that need to be kept in order to create experience for people to have a level of survivability 100 yes does that have anything to do with who you [ __ ] or who you pray to no it doesn't but but i think that there is a reason that some of us need to keep an eye on whether this is a actual gatekeeping thing right like oh yeah well you're just part of the big ol you know good old boys club or is it truly like look you only have a

year worth of experience and i don't want you to [ __ ] up and kill all the dolphins in the ocean because you decided you could pop this plc with a script that you found off a [ __ ] exploit hub yeah yes there's no gatekeeping there it might be actually a safety issue right i think it's adding on to that go back to the go back to the blacksmithing thing and i perfect example because there's a bunch of folks in this industry i have a ton of respect for because they use their hands for things other than bloody keyboards and i watch how they have honed their skills over the years and it's not saying that you can't come

in and you can't do it right and you can't kick ass and everything else what it's saying and this is again what pisses me off about the industry is you do get people to go out there with the euro two's experience and on linkedin they're experts or on linkedin they they put themselves at that they start up a company and go hey i'm a expert in this and this and this and this and this now double edged sword the industry itself especially the companies in it demand an expert with five years experience that's just come out of college and all the other [ __ ] for a junior role and it's we have to do

a lot of education in our world the gatekeeping yeah there's a couple of people that i would happily take out and just concrete and put in the bottom of the mariana [ __ ] trends to be both honest all about that yeah one that actually owns two companies in our industry um and he knows i'm after his throat um yeah i have no [ __ ] bones about that let's put it that way um and i think that's what and again same thing so again you know somebody just said hey you can get a degree in cyber security i actually don't mind it i like the fact that you can get a degree in this one i

actually have no problem with that because at least it means you come out with some level of freaking understanding but i don't want you having that degree hopefully now demanding a hundred thousand plus dollars and then thinking you're a freaking expert or a superstar that [ __ ] doesn't work it's it there is an argument to say you've got to do your time to actually learn and understand to be more effective about this yeah yeah you know i i i so so part of my wishes for our industry right i wish there was a do-over button for us to hit that that had a a practical amount of experience required for you to be at the bottom

of the industry so and and i mean that from the you know like i have i i have a younger sister right my younger sister is my life i love her i love her to death and she is she's you know 30 years old right she spent all this time going to school and then before she was going to go out to try and you know practice a career in medicine and all this other stuff she was like all right i'm going to get done with my first part of school and then i'm going to work in a research lab because those people have to grind like you have to actually for like do real work and the work that you

do is instantly put down to the road of clinical trials and studies and she was working on ms patients and like i can't even i can't even grasp the idea of thinking about like i wrote an exploit and it worked or didn't work versus like i did lab testing and someone's ms is reversing like that's apples and astronauts different right so she goes through she spends a bunch of years doing research science and then goes back to go to dental school because she decides look i'm not gonna go into research science i'm gonna take the practical application of what i've learned working with patients working with research doing all these things and apply it to dentistry right right

she got beat down all over the place because she didn't go right from her school and college directly into dental school yeah and then from dental school directly into something else yeah because she had some practical world experience now think about how long it takes you to be a on-the-street practicing doctor right i mean it's it's nuts it's like mid-late twenties before you can actually yeah wait unless you poke a human right you could poke a human when you're like 28 yeah if you like killed it and skipped a whole bunch of steps yeah and even then you are the like level one you are not an expert you are literally level one and you like by the time you

turn 60 you have progressed to like senior level doctor right yeah and and you know some of those things that i think in our industry i think we need to re-look at the industry and figure out how do we start to produce a skill set in our industry that is sustainable not for the industry but for actual for the practitioners you know like one of the things that makes me most concerned about like why we need to talk about business is that you have this like quick hustle money game which is pretty much if i go out and i learn a bunch of like hauler level magic tricks could i hustle people enough to make a

couple dollars at a bar that's pretty much the bug bounty game right like it really is like could i find some novel way to do it run it against all these people and be able to like make some money off of it is that going to be a sustainable like 30 40 level you know career can i can i do that for 40 years [ __ ] no it's not gonna happen like i don't i don't give a [ __ ] who you work for what magical [ __ ] mystical talent beast you are like starting off with that and going right into the i make a million dollars a year like cool it was a good trick it's not going

to last forever and i want people in this industry to have a sustainable career so when i when i look at that from a hiring perspective especially as a ceo and as someone who started as you know a shitty 28 thousand dollar network engineer you know i like i can see where some of these things in the field we need to maybe back off of this idea of like you know the cert gets me directly into a high-paying job right maybe it's uh the cert is one of the pieces that i need in order to gain the level of experience and reliability to to begin a career path but but why do we why why do we want to

end our career right in the beginning like oh i want to go right to being a senior well then where do you go like you go yeah you go to your grave pretty much senior into management at which point it's like of god so you've you've kind of traded one i kind of half ass know about it for another i half ass know about it right and then we wonder why [ __ ] fails yeah it's um i think the other thing to add on to this one and actually healthcare is a really really freaking good one um because again same thing i spend my years of college i spend my years of school i go to university i get a

pre-med i go do this i go do that and all of a sudden mid late 20s i get to be able to poke somebody and i'm only allowed to do it then because there's so many freaking drugs and so much [ __ ] and so many things i could do to somebody that isn't right and i've had to learn as much as i can what we now have in our industry if you really really think about it and let's face it the news in the last 48 hours pointed it out bluntly to us but for all these years leading up to this now if we got [ __ ] wrong you broke a computer well you know

reboot you'll be fine that kind of crazy [ __ ] we've now we have been for a number of years but it's now really starting to come to light that when we get [ __ ] wrong people are going to die and i think for me it's like okay so you're going to let somebody come out of a 16 week or a 30 week training course and don't get me wrong i think the training courses are [ __ ] great i have zero problem with because not everybody likes certain though give me alternatives to come in apprenticeships but you're going to let somebody come out of a 16 week training course and go straight into

an organization or a position where they could literally run a scanner in a healthcare facility and do that to somebody that i have a problem with yeah and and that's and especially now you take it another step further it's like okay you go to where we're going with the embedded technology you go to where we're going with all the tech that we're engaging in ourselves our homes our lives we have we can't keep up with all that [ __ ] let's just be perfectly honest on this one so now we're introducing more people with less time and less skills and by the way some of them are like i'm gonna go do this i'm gonna go start

my own company and i'm like okay you gotta take a step back get off of your own take a step back and go look really where am i this is again the apprenticeship thing for me it's like okay who and how can we bring people into this industry more effectively and get back together over back to the diversity thing i think that's the other part of it i want as well but um we can't hit the reset button unfortunately not at the moment it's just how do we manage it at this point forward yeah and and i think the diversity thing is is important um you know for for my for my own experience right

um i i can tell you that that while we have run uh a company that i am quite proud of that i'm i'm i've bled a hell of a lot over um the real the real revolution and and i can i can see it as as openly and honestly as possible the the real revolution in our business um of where we changed from just being what i would call a lifestyle business um to to truly expanding and formalizing what we do and how we do it and plans you know not just going all right we're going to hit these numbers we're going to hit this level of ebitda by hitting this level of ebitda i'm

going to be able to invest in this and do this right like that's basic business [ __ ] um the real revolution for us in growth and expansion and all of those things probably didn't even come till the last maybe four years five years out of 12 minutes you know 12 13 years of business and and i can tell you largely it was kicked off by us looking at the business moving from the idea of you know all right we're you know we can we can do all of the things right like like like oh yeah sure i can do everything from accounting to running quickbooks to running sales calls to doing engineering work and all this

all this [ __ ] um to to really starting to go all right i need to be able to rely on the people that are often behind the scenes and then understanding that they're truly the foundation of the business that yeah that the stuff that we were doing was almost like the end of the process not the beginning of the process it was literally the end and to your to your exact point diversity is one of those things that changed our business permanently right like you know my my team um i'll go to bat for them any day and at the same time i'll take the pepsi challenge against any [ __ ] person or

company in the industry that you know my head of sales can probably out hack some of the best people that are the seniors on most other teams and oh yeah yeah it's a woman and who runs the money another woman yeah who who runs our project management it sure as [ __ ] isn't a guy yeah because i know how disorganized most men are you know like same thing jen jen looks after me i could not function and when when she came in i'm like i can't function she just looked at me i'm like i'm really obvious oh yeah exactly i'm like i can't do this there's not enough hours in the day to make things

work and i mean again this is this goes back to the business thing it's like okay you have to do all of your work in less time than you had before and by the way you still have to go out there and hunt and kill um good oh by the way you're still going to live you're still going to live you're still going to pay bills you still got to pay everybody else saying you balance the accounts you gotta balance the books right this [ __ ] just [ __ ] it this doesn't work jen came in she's like i got you covered she's she's organizing conferences for me at the moment it's scary as hell i'd forgotten how much

stuff i've actually committed to she's looking at me like why are they not paying for this she's like this is a revenue stream like i'm sorry i don't know anything about that i'm just going to the super conference she's got a better business head than i have and she's freaking amazing and she i mean it's again what i love about it it's an entirely different set of thoughts and it also takes us i think that's the other part of it as well it takes us realizing that we can't do it all and i think that's something a lot of us are i know i wasn't good at that for a while i'm still not good in some areas

um it's like jake i got jake running with me now he's doing a bunch of the assessment stuff i have now got to a comfort level with him where i can just hand it off and what i get back to look at from a report maybe takes me half an hour and i'm like yes rather than three hours of rewriting and rewording and [ __ ] like that he's got his [ __ ] together he's articulate and it's finding the right people it's training the right people it's helping them understand why we do it the way we do it why to do it the right way rather than just throwing [ __ ] over the fence and hoping

some of it sticks yeah well i mean look in in in the same spirit of of diversity i think you know the the right way air quotes um is is something that is subject to to perception and and without having people on the team that can have not only a level of humility but remove some of their hubris and be able to accept somebody else's opinion regardless of how rough it may be that that creates the right way for many different situations because whether you're a certain orientation or you have a certain belief system or you're a certain gender or whatever else by by mixing those things together you get more right ways right like you can

you can pick and choose from the people on the team who have a relation to that business or to that customer or to that person and you can say look i'm i might be the person who's on the call right now but in order for this to land correctly like i i need to understand where these different aspects come from so i think the more that you can diversify the team the more that you have the ability to get multiple people's levels of input the better off you are i i caveat that though with there is a certain amount of diversity that happens because it was required and that diversity requirement is something where i feel like people

don't absorb it as well right like i am a person who i want to learn about all these people's you know crazy stuff that doesn't make any sense to me like okay cool you believe in you know wild couch spirits like awesome tell me more about that like eventually i will be able to learn more about it so if i meet somebody else who's down with you know the crazy couch gods like i'm like i've heard about that before that sounds neat but but i think that you know some sometimes which is also probably not politically correct or cool to say that the you know required diversity pieces they like phone it in right like they're

like oh well i just i just ticked the box and i hired this many people of this color and gender yeah style and all this stuff and and they don't get the benefit of actually having that diverse culture because they're so big it's like the [ __ ] difference between compliance and security i knew that was going to come up right i'm like yes you're either doing it because you want it or you're doing it because you have to but [ __ ] i'd rather people do it because they want it right and so this to me goes this is to the heart of some of the reasons why i think building your own company is a good

thing the good [ __ ] you get to have those choices you get to make him yourself you i do i love hanging out um i hang out there's a podcast every through wednesday afternoon it's called bridges in tech and it's freaking brilliant i just love it because there's so much diversity i'm kidnapping people from there to go hey do you want to go work over here can i put you can i can we bo can i borrow you for some of this i freaking love it it's like it's like a talent pool that i can be like hey this is amazing from this one yet people sit and go well i don't know how not unaware to me it's like okay

what i do love about doing the company thing is the ability to effect change personally rather than fighting against a system that to your point is just like we got the token black person yes uh they're sitting in the office over there we don't really know what to do with them but we've got the token yeah but we've we found a laser they're here and um they're they're over there in that office i get the [ __ ] out of here you know it's stupid yeah i uh i you know i was i was just i'm sitting looking through through no the the not asking us questions but still like listening everybody's doing it i'm

actually gonna hit that i'm hitting the next one so we're gonna yeah this is my day sometimes [ __ ] yeah um i i'm i'm gonna end i'm gonna end the good with you know on that piece of of diversity and institutionalizing knowledge and being able to have certain levels of freedom um that freedom is a double-edged sword yeah it um i i am positive mr roberts could tell you about what it looks like when you think you are free because you are the owner of a company but in turn you are not really free because there is a community of people out there who truly want to do nothing but light you on fire because they don't

feel like they're free right well there's that okay so let's hit that one in a second because to me that can get that that actually goes to our oregon trail one that's oregon trail that's oregon trail time here's what i love about this one so you work inside an organization you work for you know you work for the man or the woman take your pick on this one you work for the organization you have one boss maybe you have a dotted line to somewhere else you know it's like oh i got two bosses that i don't know it sucks okay you know you don't know how lucky you are i'm looking at the stuff i'm doing i think i'm an advisor

for there's like 12 or 14 companies at the moment and i'm also doing a bunch of other stuff i have and you're in the same boat i have 14 to 16 bosses at any one point in time and that doesn't count the bosses at home kids and dogs and all the other totally relevant all the way bosses the dog being the one so again you know typical bloody thing the dog number one he'll come and wander over every now and again see what i'm up to and stick his head in the conference which i love but other people do too but at four o'clock in the morning when you're actually trying to break [ __ ] or do

something it's like uh so we're awake can we go play okay and there is no when that when a 195 pound great dane decides that they want to play you're not going to be able to say no yeah yeah the same goes when they have to [ __ ] you know don't really have an option to be like hey hold on a second be like oh that's cool i'm just going to take care of it right here and then you have to realize that like in that moment of extreme error of judgment where you have decided to put your needs beyond the needs of the people around you you then have a whole big opportunity

to figure out what solvents work how long it's going to take how you remove that bad decision from your life at what at what time this will happen you get to remember that bad decision for the rest of your hacking session because it's six o'clock in the morning all you smell is that one cleanup event that continues to exist in your life oh we um this past year and this is exactly almost exactly the reason for this so this past year beginning of the year we totally redid the landscaping in the back of the garden we took out all the grass and we put in basically astro turf and we put in the good stuff the high quality stuff that

looks like colorado grass all that other [ __ ] and the reason we did that is because again you know three o'clock in the morning in the middle of the winter when you're down here typing one of the big dogs comes in at yeah and they've been outside in the snow or the mud and they've traced in through the kitchen in through the house all the way through the great room and dances down the stairs they come up to you they've got a nice muddy nose because they dug because it's cool and then you're like guys i hate to interrupt but um we have several questions or several people have asked a question about something that mr

nickerson said earlier uh and it had to do with the impression you gave that sexism and racism were being used as crutches and victimhood yeah can you clarify that please i absolutely will there are a a large number of of opinions that exist in the industry and and this is in every single industry now when you say stereotype the reason that the word stereotype exists is because that means it's the majority doesn't mean that it's every single person right so this same thing exists in our industry where we have a large number of people who have truly gone through the experience who have truly said you can't climb the ladder because you are x because you're

this gender this race this uh you know religion the sexual orientation all of that stuff right i said very clearly before that happens but there is also a sect of people who are using that as a crutch and we have to be able to distinct between the two right there is there is a very poignant problem that we need to address i feel that we have been trying to correct that over time and we've been accelerating that correction but we cannot ignore the people that are giving the ones who have actually gone through bad [ __ ] a bad name by just co-opting their experience and and and i'm i'm more than happy to continue that

kind of dichotomous ex you know discussion on both sides but there is a huge difference between somebody who has not been afforded the opportunity and somebody who had has been afforded the opportunity and has used it as a crutch and said oh well i'm not getting to in the context of that comment was i'm not getting the hundred thousand dollar job a year because i'm this sexual orientation or because i'm this gender or because i believe in this you know space boogie man in the sky versus in the ground versus in my soul versus in the you know ethos and at the same time said person only has you know 16 weeks of experience from a certain

academy that gave them a paper paper tiger shirt now there's a big difference between the person who has worked their ass off for 20 years and has been [ __ ] on by the industry and really needs to have the expect and and the respect that they deserve because they put in the time versus the person who went out and got a paper cert and wants to start bitching about you know how the industry doesn't treat them right and there's all these gatekeepers when they don't even have the experience to exist at level one there's no responses from the crowd which is great i think you know i'm actually gonna i'm oh hey do you mind if i add a little bit

onto this please go ahead i was just gonna ask mr nickerson what percentage of people do you think are on either side of that i don't i don't have a stat right i know but but i think that the realization that has to exist is that there are two sides there is no one-sided coin and and we have to be able to evaluate based on experience based on you know what people can and can't contribute and be able to recognize where their value is and and also back to the whole blacksmithing thing be able to say look you might not be really really good at making knives but you could be really really good at making

something else with this same material and and so i think on us it's not just an issue of blanketly saying oh well no one gets an opportunity because of xyz i think that we have to be able to go back into that and be able to objectively look at it and be able to to kind of be the third party that that all of us wish that we could be in the world and say is this truly a problem of of opportunity and and recognize how we have to give people more opportunity and be able to do that in a more effective way or is this a problem of evaluation where we now have to guide this person to say

look i i get that you might feel that this is the reason that you're being held down but the the the raw fact is you only took one day worth of blacksmithing and you need 15 years in order to be considered a master blacksmith now whether you want to be able to accept that or not it is what it is and and i and i think that that's that's my distinction between those two there are people on both sides there are people that have been absolutely [ __ ] on throughout their career you know what i can i can give every piece of like what what privileges i've had and whatever else but have i gone through a large part of

my career where i was [ __ ] on because of my age yeah hell yeah did i know more than the people that i was working for [ __ ] yeah i was a better engineer than almost anyone else on that team and i was making 20 grand a year and when i went and i went up to management and i said what do i have to do to make the 80 grand that these people made they were like oh we'll go get these certs i literally went out and got an mcse i got a ccna and a ccda in three weeks and i brought it back up and then the [ __ ] head of the

department ducked me continued to duck me until my boss who was a i mean sherwood archibald is probably one of the most influential man in in my life with the exception of of my my stepdad who i call my dad larry o'brien he is one of those influential men in my entire life as a you know 50 something year old at the time black mp who worked and and was a 30-year vet came up to me and said you will not get anywhere in this company you have to leave yeah and that's that moment to me where my age the ageism that was going on in my career was something that the person above me

had to realize was it something that they could fix was it something they could offer a new opportunity to or was their responsibility you have to leave because the culture's not going to accept you and you have to fly on and and that's something that i have experienced even being a man of whatever skin color privilege or sexual orientation privilege or whatever the [ __ ] privilege that i have right all of us go through hard [ __ ] my comment to that is as a business owner as a manager as a peer we have to all be able to recognize what are the confines of our of of our particular company and organization and be able to evaluate is this

something that's resolvable is it something where we could open up the door of opportunity or is this something where this person's so good that the company doesn't even [ __ ] deserve them and it's time for us to help them move on to a company that does deserve the talent that they have

no i'm not i i i'm i'm actually thinking back to some of the [ __ ] i went through years ago on that one i'm also thinking forward at the moment because again same thing i remember working in an organization um before i went in the military same thing remember working in the company i was freaking 16 17 years old and i remember having the conversation i'm teaching the people that are earning three times more than me how do i change that and the answer was pretty much so you don't i'm like well it's been a pleasure thank you and goodbye and you just you know you don't change that because you're 16 17 you're just

not no scared et cetera et cetera et cetera now that is one unfortunate to your point i'm fortunate and i do say unfortunately because i am you know let's face it i'm old gray and white um but at the same time here's my other call out on this one and it's a big one and this comes from some of the stuff that we're dealing with at the moment in the industry where there's a number of people who are not necessarily being gatekeeper but it's more on the gaslighting side of things this is where it's going to get really kind of gnarly because there's a lot of us in here and again because we're not working for companies

we can stand up and say [ __ ] this we need to change it because we're not being held down by hr that says oh you can't get controversial which is how it's happened in the past but the ability now to stand up and go hey i will be a bullet shield for some of this as long as those people are willing to march alongside that's also i'm finding part of the problem is that sometimes the people that are having the issues that bring them up quietly behind the scenes when we do stand up and say we will have cover fire for you we will march with you we will be the [ __ ] bullet shields for all i care

those people are going to stand up as well it does take both parties and that is something i don't know how to fix the money i think part of it is because there is still concern in the industry there's retribution valid concern unfortunately and that's another thing i don't know how to solve it's one of those frustrating things that's actually pissing me off on a semi-regular basis because i see it too much i hear about it too much we all know that there are people in this industry that use their influence and their power to demean others to hold others hostage ransom whatever you want to call it from images from business and the sexual side

of it and that shit's got to end and i don't know how to fix that to be perfectly honest all right i i hate to interrupt here again i apologize this is good this is a conversation if we were all together we would be able to rap and people would just walk it out i know like i said i just lose them out i'm tempted to just open the zoom up to anyone do it open it up do it i'll kill that senator let me stop the share hang on i want to show this one i want to show this like the distance light had to be shot you had to show the dysentery slide the

ugly [ __ ] this is when this is when your own company votes you out of your own company and you piss off the investors and you do all sorts of other [ __ ] it's happened twice now not once but twice well done me all right so yeah all right end of slides yes all right it had to be dysentery all right i'm back all right let me see let me see if i can do this um so what i was asking when i asked that we've said that we should throw the zoom open regarding the gatekeeping and the sexism and the harassment that goes on is that a matter of people being unpleasant or

is it a matter of people being unself-aware because if i if i look backwards yeah if i look back over my and i'm not really an infosec never really have been i'm just a pretty decent cis admin um pretty decent [ __ ] yeah i was going to say you're an infant suck it up what blue tea i don't even know um you're right you're part of us your family and the discussion that's all we need to like all right thanks um i've done some horrible stuff i mean i i i look back if absolutely horrible stuff and i still have some deeply ingrained racism yep and some deeply ingrained sexism so how i mean i am aware of it at least

yeah and it's still subconsciously i'll catch myself thinking something [ __ ] happens yeah i grew up in a household my father my father was british military and at one point i think he was relatively okay but then he got dragged into the live age stuff and he went over to africa did a bunch of stuff over there saw the individuals over there and what they did to each other and now as far as he was concerned was it definitely wouldn't happen to the english people i'm like yeah actually probably would take food away be amazed at what one human will do to another at that point i lived in a racist household and believe from my father's side my

mother absolutely not but my father was definitely that way so i i'm fortunate i grew up in various parts of the world so for me i didn't even really think about color until i got over here and the first interaction i had with somebody was like let me introduce you to my black friend i'm like you categorize your [ __ ] friends by the skin color you have a second voice you have that voice at the back of your head perfect example i did this on linkedin the other day i put a picture of basically black guy running like this that guy running along on the side i'm like what is your very first impression

is it oh nice guy out for a jog yeah exactly is it nice guy for a jog or is it what just happened if it's that latter one that's okay perfectly acceptable but that second voice should be sitting there arguing against you before you open your bloody mouth and say the stupid [ __ ] yeah that's how i look at it yeah i mean i i agree that there is such a rampant problem with people's lack of evolution um that that that to me is where that exists right like like having a a gay uncle who died of aids in the 90s gave me a different perspective of how people needed to accept or not

accept the the [ __ ] that other people do now whether it's skin color creed you know religion who you [ __ ] whatever um like like it it gave me a different opinion of that and it was just because i had to i had to see it right like like i was i was the kid with two guys walking down the street who you know when i was young had had to listen to the [ __ ] that people would say and and it was always confusing to me but i i don't think that that there's this like universal you know it happens for everything like i think we also need to give people some space to evolve i think

sometimes uh people get held so accountable for their past that we forget that we were all stupid kids we forget that we did dumb [ __ ] that was illegal or not legal or whatever whatever it's supposed to be called right and and and i think that that goes with our evolution of language over time i think it goes with our evolution of self our evolution of awareness our evolution of other people like you know i mean i i went i went to furry cons because i thought it was fun because like those people were mad cool like it was like they did neat [ __ ] they made like really awesome costumes and then like i started to hear about

the other people who were slamming them because they were like oh it's just a conference that you go to and you dress up in like mascot uniforms and like had sex with a bunch of people and i was like how come i missed that party because like i was i was i was like looking at all the cool art and like all the other things but but you know my my point to that is that i feel like we need to be able to give ourselves permission to evolve and permission to evolve sometimes mean means accepting that that where we grew up and how we grew up had a certain amount of language and association and things like

that to it where it might be hard like look my grandmother was was not a racist person now did she say some like racist sounding [ __ ] well yeah because they used words like that back then and that was like the language and vernacular that she used but at the same time on you know three days before she passed did she look at the two black dudes that picked her up and carried her from one bed to another bed and like touch his arm and be like yeah i'll let you move me to bed okay well guess what you know like she might have said the n-word a couple times in her life but at the same time

she was definitely an old man or an old woman on her bed hitting on black dudes actively like there's a big [ __ ] difference between how you act in the [ __ ] that you say and i think that while while it's going to take all of us a long time to be able to get to the neutral language that allows us to associate and work with everyone respectively we still have to look at the actions of people we have to look at like okay there's there might be a real big difference between the word that you used instead of you calling me the wrong pronoun and immediately jumping to like you [ __ ] hate trans people to like

maybe you just suck at it because the day that i met you you used to be called she now you're called it or whatever robot that you decided to be called and i just suck at it because i had like nine years of calling you one thing and i've had one year of calling you the new thing and like i'm just gonna [ __ ] up because i'm human that doesn't that doesn't mean that i'm a piece of [ __ ] it just means that like you gotta give me a little bit of permission to evolve imagine imagine parents whose kids um i was just gonna say i don't have kids so i can't imagine it but

[ __ ] it would be hard let me take that one step further so i have two daughters one of my daughters has now decided to be going no by non-binary so she and i were talking several months ago oh no month or two ago now she is no longer margaret she's alex or they are now called alex so i am working my way through that i don't actually have a problem that's kind of cool i'm like you girlfriend i mean several years ago she came out to me she's like i like women i'm like okay good for you she's like you okay with it i'm like why wouldn't i be she's like well i know you're upbringing

and i know how you are i'm like yeah and i've evolved i have a lot of other thoughts i have a different way i deal with things etcetera etcetera etcetera and she was a word about freaking telling me but now she's gone you know now now she has basically said look i'm going non-binary i don't mind if you call me she i don't know if you got me here i don't mind if you call me they or whatever i'm learning this but my name is alex i'm like great alex it is i've changed it in my phone i've changed in my messaging the whole bloody lot and to me i'm like i'm fine with that

but that whole implicit bias that sits at the back of the head that little voice that comes out every and again has questions and as long as you can take the time to listen to them understand them realize where the hell they came from you know the christmas point we grew up arguably in a different era than we're in now look at alex yeah i look at alex and i go to alex and i'm like hey she grown up in an entirely different place i mean so to me it's that it's like you have to have that basically that pause button that secondary voice that you listen to and you go okay yeah i can figure this one out and i

think so many people either don't have that or they don't listen to it or they just don't know what to do with it or they just don't accept i mean to chris's point there are people that you just have to accept won't or can't change for whatever reason and you know rest my father's soul and all that stuff he was one of those as far as he was concerned if your skin color was different than his the chances are you're up to no good and there was nothing i could do with it no matter how many conversations no matter how many discussions no much hamada it just was what it was so we ended up

basically compromising and we talked about the weather and we talked about british politics believe it or not and that was it and we just we knew how to navigate our conversations so that so that basically i didn't go off on a rant or anything along those lines yeah it is nice i think that when when when we look at all of these like really inflammatory issues from the lens of either being part of the business being a leader in a business or being the owner founder whatever in a business um one of the one of the best levels of of guidance and i think philosophies on it that that i've i've really i've ever experienced was like

having a chat with mark cuban and mark cuban literally saying like it is not about your business being woke woke is [ __ ] stupid it is about understanding your responsibility and if your responsibility is to be aware and make sure that people are given the opportunity to be the most effective that they can be that's your job as a leader that's your only job as a leader it doesn't matter where they're from it doesn't matter anything else your job is to be able to spot the passion and the talents and the things that they have and be able to nurture that and be able to smash any roadblocks that exist outside of that if you can't do that

don't lead that's a huge one and it's i got that it's in a slide on my damn deck all the [ __ ] time now i don't care race color creed eye color number of limbs any of this [ __ ] i just don't can you do your job or do you have the passion to do it and i can work with you and train you that's all i care about anything else complete i'd rather you actually able to articulate it in a freaking report that would be nice but if not we can work with that as well anything else don't give a [ __ ] there is a certain type of human that i distrust by default

and he's just pointing at me on the screen he's like no no no no i'm not um that type of person is the type of person who is breathing do you know that i mean we all know the deal yeah and we used to be trust and verify i've had to learn that one unfortunately the [ __ ] hard way i now verify then trust ish exactly yeah you know i so so so wrapping back around to business owners and and how business owners need to deal with these things and i and i think that this goes all the way down to peers and business leaders um i uh and i'm gonna i'm gonna just say me

personally right um i believe that if we take the collective power that we have to analyze the situation to determine whether you know going back to the question for me of like oh is this universal like you don't think sexism exists and all that stuff no [ __ ] yeah it does but but if we collectively can look at that in our environments and we can say this person isn't going to get ahead because the company is a piece of [ __ ] or the person who's a [ __ ] manager has you know some you know holy war against a certain religion or a certain race or certain ethos or whatever else i think it's on us not to just try and

go out and be like this company sucks don't work for them i i think the opposite way i think we should completely rob that company of their talent and that means when we're sitting on the inside and we see that somebody else is getting held back we're like look this person's a [ __ ] badass you don't deserve them so one i'm gonna help them get a better job two you're gonna now lose that talent and this company's not gonna do as well so if you wanna be altruistic and you wanna hang yourself out there go get the person who is being held back a better job and ignore how that person was going to

make your life better that will change companies going out and being like oh i'm going to write an article about about how everybody was bad inside of this company [ __ ] it you're gonna have two people bitching and moaning online about the same topic and nothing's gonna happen to that company but if you take that all-star talent that is being held back for whatever reason and you help them get into a place where they can bloom and they can shine the company that they got they got removed from is not going to be able to receive the gifts of their talents and the company that they go to is going to shine and accelerate that's

how you actually can change it so uh yeah i got a couple of companies we need to stop poaching from and actually i already did it jake actually worked at one of the organizations when i i'm like come on hang out and he's yeah we're having fun oh come over here yeah yeah like i don't i don't care what you're interested in you could be into weird [ __ ] you mean a [ __ ] i don't understand as long as you can do your job and you can innovate and you can be passionate that's all i want to see like and and once you remove people from a place that's holding them down their passion gets to bloom

and that's the most beautiful thing in the world oh it's so fun if you want to twist the knife in deeper after you poach them let the shareholders know that the company was holding back their talent and you poached them and the company is not doing what's in your best interest we are actually running into that one now yeah well so we hit this one now there's one particular individual in our industry who runs two companies and we know some of the individuals on the shareholder board and few other things and there has been derek and the other thing actually that's useful um is when and i've done this with doing this a number of times with some of the

individuals when you see them actually appearing at conferences or when they're meant to be doing stuff especially the grooming shed you get hold of the conference organizers say hey have you actually done any research into this individual you might want to ask a b and c and just go hey i'm going to block and [ __ ] tackle your ability to get out there and communicate i'm going to do what i can to basically start to pin you in so you don't have the ability to ruin more people yeah i mean you know look i i think at the end of all of this um one of back to the whole benefit of being able to start your own thing

is that it's yours and if you want to be a piece of [ __ ] and start a piece of [ __ ] company go for it like literally just go for it you want to be a [ __ ] horrible racist sexist piece of [ __ ] that is has a company that's founded on that i i should not stop you from that i really shouldn't i should just be like go be the piece of garbage human that you are at the end of the day if we could all keep ourselves accountable the company will blow up in a giant and prolific fireworks show of dumpster fire and then we can all go well you know

what you gave it a shot maybe you should be a little bit more aware of the things that you were doing in order to integrate with modern society because we're not [ __ ] cavemen anymore and we have to take these things into account but who am i to tell somebody not to pursue the nefarious terrible [ __ ] that they're going to do like i i'm just not that person like i don't feel so entitled in my life that i should tell somebody what right and wrong is what i do for me is just do right and wrong and be able to know that when i go to sleep at night i did the best that i could here's one

thing i'll add on to that and take you with a grain of salt we inside the industry know let's face it we know lara's capabilities we know the capabilities we know the abilities we know what they're good at doing people out there don't necessarily know that they don't know how to measure how effective you are against how effective the douche bag is are setting up the company douchebags got marketing money oh i am wonderful i'm perfect i'm [ __ ] awesome look at me i'm yeah i come with smoke mirrors and [ __ ] all the other [ __ ] that goes with it arguably we somehow or other need to help businesses organizations entities and

individuals figure out how to actually see that how to peel back the layers how to ask the right questions how to actually go hey how do i measure this how do i understand this quickly easily and simply that would be the other thing i'd add on to that um because again as a business you know you there's no difference okay you know you want to go start your own business you want to go start a pen testing company great kick ass and go for it do it right do it correctly if you don't back to this i'm just going to throw a report at it and off i go quit that [ __ ] that doesn't help anybody

these days so at that point it's like okay how do i help these hundred companies determine who are the best people not the best who is the right for them who would it get the right [ __ ] questions in their hands and make it simple all right i hate to interrupt again i apologize oh stop apologizing yeah this is just yeah i need alcohol too and i also need to go get dinner um i was eating durian i'm sorry i know that's okay we have we have a friday night tradition that started with covid so trying to maintain that tradition um were you telling me this is to get this to shut up and get the hell off of

this so you can go get dinner pretty much see that was it easy the question is let me get back to my question um do we want to continue to stream this on twitch i'm more than happy to leave the zoom up but do we leave the twitch up i actually have to bug out fairly soon i've gotta i gotta go talk to somebody and go tell people and stuff like that yeah i'll i'll leave that with the um the business of business and the business of security is that one of the things that we have failed to do that that i can i can immediately just like take my own accountability for in um let's say promoting in the industry

right like and i and i learned this a couple years ago um and have been since trying to work on it but the the idea of the blacksmith the apprenticeship right um we we took it a little bit far in a couple different directions where it was like well if you're not grinding 12 hours a day if you're not working so much that your family hates you and you have to get a divorce and your kids disown you and all that stuff then you know you're not working at all um i i think that that's another thing that we need to we need to realize in our lives and try and disconnect from is there there's a place for work

there is a place for hobby and and you know a lot of us who have gotten into this industry did it because we are so passionate about the things that we do that we do it in our free time so we ended up having this industry that was founded like you know if if your job was to taste bourbon for a living and you were also an alcoholic it's not super good for you because guess what you're gonna work all the time and you're gonna [ __ ] everything else in your life up so to wrap up this segment of what it is like in business we also have to recognize that that exists i think that we have to

recognize that about our peers about all of us here on the call together whether we're leaders whether we're owners whether we're something else we have to set those guideline points so that when somebody says it's my tradition to be able to spend this time with our family our first answer isn't like [ __ ] you work harder our first answer is hell yeah i need to probably integrate that into my life because i know i'm not spending enough time doing these other things outside of my passionate piece of work so i am all about that and i think that it's one more of those things inside of the business of security that we need to think about

of sometimes it's not just working more hours or more days sometimes it's being let's say woke enough to realize that the people that are working need to shut it the [ __ ] down i'm actually going to add on to that i learned from chris actually and from a number of others to do this [ __ ] and actually now arguably this is eating into my time i monday through friday every because i work at night as well so monday through friday six o'clock at night to nine o'clock at night this and this whole [ __ ] goes away that's time with the dogs time with jen time with mo when i have her and

everything else and saturday you won't really get hold of me i don't typically i don't carry the phone with me and i don't deal with email or any of that [ __ ] i just won't do it now saturday night when the entire house has gone to sleep i'll jump back on again and kind of do stuff but yeah monday through friday six to nine get the hell out of here i'm not gonna deal with you uh and i you i'll take oh you take some of the credit for that one big time i'm assuming i'm pointing at you on your screen as well let's just put it that way yeah yeah i was i was wondering which

chris too because uh oh that's right i'm tc nobody ever nobody calls me address

thank you guys for letting us come to rant thank you for being open and available to talk about things that are hard to talk about and and also being respectful enough to allow everyone to have their own opinion because i think that when when i look at anything inside of the originations of of b-sides and and where a lot of these talks in the community have come from one of the things that i am the most proud of is that we've been able to create some safe spaces for people to have hard conversations where people might not agree and and i think that the more and more that we can incorporate that into our daily lives and our business

lives um the more that the ethos of this community of being able to talk about the hard problems but talk about them in a safe space is is something that benefits the entirety of the world so i i just really really appreciate that like y'all let us come talk about these things and aren't just judging and aren't putting it on blast but that are really just you know here here to work together to make to make something that's different to make something that's that's available that has permission that has hopes that has you know an infinite level of possibility and and so i i really really appreciate still being allowed to be in a community that's like

that when when i decide to throw you guys out i'll let you know probably won't happen for a while though i mean i'm just going to hit the leave button so that i can support your family yeah no i'm actually gonna i'm actually gonna bug out as well because i can hear the dogs upstairs and if they don't get fed they will start to eat this up yeah no i placed the order already and it's like a five minute to drive so we've got a little bit of space so now we're working on your time huh oh okay i get it chris the boss walking boss doesn't want you to stop no no i just wanted to close this out

properly uh i wanted to thank everyone who showed up uh and who those who are willing to actually hop on the stream and share their uh opinion with everybody in the world basically because that will end up saved on twitch and i'm gonna cut it up and put it well somebody will cut it up and it'll end up on youtube at some point so well thank you very much everybody it's it's good to um yeah this was good i'm but i think beck's floating around somewhere where she put up with all the [ __ ] and the craziness and the yeah we're doing this yeah you know what i was going to call it a potential

intellectual circle wank [Laughter] i got all the times

that's right well again thanks to everyone yeah thank you for having that is besides denver 2020 maybe we'll do like a six month round table and just get like eight people together to [ __ ] i love it on the stream no matter what anyway that i can help i'm i'm always here and available to help out from moving boxes to doing other [ __ ] so if if i could be helpful in any way please let me know and maybe everyone real quick thanks to the b-side staff cass tc uh pj everyone that made this happen really appreciate the time that goes into it that most everyone does not see yeah all right it was it was a blast legitimately

um and hopefully next year we can do this in person when we can actually you know get drinks and drink them in the same room i love it everyone stays safe and safe and healthy all right take care